John Lennon on Joni Mitchell: 'Overeducated'.

Upper class - lords, royalty etc
Middle class - professional people with careers, some privately educated
Working class - tradesmen, non skilled workers, left school at 16

Defined not necessarily by you, but your parents/guardians

John - lower middle
Paul - upper working
George - working
Ringo - working

Joni - Canadian

 

John is supposed to have remarked disparagingly upon "Joni's trophies", rock stars that she'd spent time with......

 

Ha ha that's fair enough. There was Nash, Crosby, James Taylor, who else?

 

The course that this thread is taking implies that calling Court And Spark 'overeducated' is either a terrible insult or risibly far from the truth. I know exactly where that criticism comes from and I don't think it's that harsh ... and I speak as someone who prefers Court And Spark to any JL solo album!

Joni was indeed smart & sophisticated to a career-wrecking extreme. JL always gives the impression that he wanted to be regarded as 'witty' (spontaneously clever), whereas Joni wanted to appear cultured. There's no question that both were immensely talented, but their views of how that talent could serve them were extraordinarily different.

 

Dubious 'quotes' at best, certainly paraphrased, throw in a tipsy John having fun with Joni in his usual manner of oblique humor.
Not really something to take seriously, or literally.

 

Well i think it is funny, accurate, waspish, classic Liverpool humour - 'overeducated' is hardly the most damning criticism, it both gives and it takes away at the same time, and is close enough to the mark to have a germ of truth.

Does anyone remember the Monty Python sketch "Summarise Proust in 15 seconds' ? . I like Joni Mitchell, but as a one word verdict on her career I think 'overeducated' is insightful, amusing, and not exactly unkind.

 

And also a euphemism. A euphemism for what? "Boring."

Joni does not rock. That's what John was saying. He likes rock and roll, not Joni's kind of music.

 

Jackson Browne

 

This is fine, but the whole class issue is, I think, complicated by the facts around many working class people in the '60s/'70s getting a real education for the first time -- beyond school, that is, and guys like Lennon benefited from this. The Beatles, dare I say it, were upwardly -mobile upper working/lower middle class guys. And good luck to them of course. Lennon was perhaps in a position where he didn't want to deny his working class origins. There's doubtleess much discussion about the levels of irony in the lyrics to 'Working Class Hero', but that would need another thread.

 

If 'Court & Spark' is a product of overeducation, let's hope more musicians go to college.

 

I'd strongly agree with Sordel's comments: tone of voice and context counts for a lot and we don't have those here.

It might be fair to say that Lennon didn't appreciate the 'Californian' vibe, judging by his comments on CSN and James Taylor, so he'd be unlikely to find much to like in Court & Spark.

As to his class background: anyone familiar with Menlove Avenue will know that it's in one of the most solidly bourgeois parts of Liverpool. John's mother's family were solidly middle-class and property-owners (the other three Beatles all lived in council homes, afaik). Alf Lennon's background was far less privileged but he was a marginal figure for most of John's childhood.

 

John was master of the piss take
A very old english form of humour americans can find troublesome to appreciate
Its a deflating device ,its not sarcasm, it has warmth and wile
John was a master, he had to be in the Fabs

 

As someone who enjoys both Joni Mitchell's and John Lennon's music, I find it interesting how one offhand comment has been spun into a variety of interpretations.
Prior to reading this thread, I never would've guessed there would've been a Joni vs John debate.

Regarding any perceptions about John being working class, have we forgotten the little detail that he wrote a song called "Working Class Hero"...?

I'm of the (common) opinion that Lennon was a very complex human being, and one would not have to dig deep to find his contradictions...in this case, how he could compose "Woman is the n****r of the World", but also with one word apparently "criticizes" Mitchell, who can be seen as just one of the female characterizations he champions in that song.

 

I don't think Lennon was specifically referring to himself in WCH - more how he was perceived as 'working class' by the media, particularly in Britain, where the assumption that if you come from the provinces (or outside the south-east) you must be some sort of hick was strong then and remains powerful today.

John himself acknowledged that his family was 'up a notch' in terms of prosperity from those of Paul and George. He never pretended to be something he wasn't.

 

I can dig that, but as far as, precisely, C&S goes, this album was quite a hit - I rely here on the figures from Wikipedia. And they say "Help Me" was Joni's biggest hit single ever (#7, Billboard Hot 100; #1, easy listening chart). I do remember myself that the album was all over FM radio in 1974.

 

There are stories that Mimi taught him to speak in a standard way but he insisted on reverting to Scouse except in her presence. In all interviews I've seen, he does use the Mersey nasal, sing song way of talking. Does any interview, presumably a very early - or possibly very late - one, show him talking more the way Mimi would have preferred? That would be interesting to see.

 

Court and Spark is a beautiful album, one of my all time favorites. If it's a product of over education, I say study hard.

 

All of the Beatles sound 'posh' by today's standards, I'd say. But I think even 1963, John sounded noticeably less 'Scouse' than the others, certainly a lot more so than George, whose accent was the thickest.

 

Court & Spark was that rare thing - a commercial hit that made no compromises. The LA Express gave it a warm, full, reassuring sound - the sound that JM had been moving towards, but hadn't quite achieved, on For The Roses. I'm sure it sounded great on the radio and that a lot of people bought it who didn't listen that closely to the lyrics.

 

This. I think John had a rather acerbic wit and meant no harm. Throw in a healthy dose of aclohol and there you go.

 

Of course, Paul would just tell her what she wanted to hear.

I miss John.

 

He became a better man with Yoko. Sorry for those who wanted him to remain 'Beatle John' for them.

 

Yeah - as much as I love John Lennon, the idea that he was more educated (as in formal education - as a self-taught idiot I respect the path of the autodidact) than most anyone strikes me as rather funny!

 

I suppose if this was a Paul thread and somebody stated that he at one time "signed his soul" over to Heather there would be an outrage and numerous postings about threadcraps, etc.

Such a double standard between the 2.