A theory for preferring vinyl.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Trapper J, Dec 21, 2014.

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  1. Trapper J

    Trapper J Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Great White North
    Hear me out.

    Yes this is ANOTHER analogue vs digital. Let's get that out of the way first. BUT!..

    I tend to find that records sound better than anything I've ever experienced so far, when it comes to music formats. To my ears, and my mind. This is just my preference. I'm not saying digital is worse. I'm just saying i prefer vinyl.

    I believe it is possible, that the sound waves inside the room, while listening to a record, are reverberating off the turntable, lp, platter, and cartridge,. And could be creating an effect (however small) within the sound being produced, more similar to a real time or real life reverb, than anything that could ever exist with digital.

    With all the talk of cartridge set up, and how it can effect sound reproduction, with even the smallest changes. I could see this being an actual "phenomenon" of sorts, that isn't factored in when arguing over who likes what best.

    Just a thought.
     
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  2. markaberrant

    markaberrant Forum Resident

    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    Mastering is all that matters. The end.
     
  3. Ntotrar

    Ntotrar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tri-Cities TN
    :-popcorn: Nothing else to post.
     
    MonkeyMan likes this.
  4. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    What happens when you listen to vinyl via headphones?
     
  5. tomd

    tomd Senior Member

    Location:
    Brighton,Colorado
    No,buying music you actually LOVE as opposed to what the "audiophiles" think is great (which is usually the case with every hi end digital format DVD-A,SACD,Blu Ray Audio) is all that matters.
     
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  6. Dougr33

    Dougr33 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Twin Cities, MN
    You killed it before it ever got off the ground. MURDERER!!
     
  7. markaberrant

    markaberrant Forum Resident

    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    Of course I buy music I love. Arguing over the superiority of a format is pointless. You want a mastering that brings the music to life.
     
    tricka likes this.
  8. Trapper J

    Trapper J Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Great White North
    Well obviously this would put a stop to the "reverb phenomenon" I'm suggesting.

    But I'm not talking about with headphones on. I've yet to listen to a record through headphones. I'm speaking purely of through speakers, in a room where this could take place.
     
  9. Trapper J

    Trapper J Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Great White North
    Yea, great opinion.

    And while i agree mastering is the biggest factor most times.

    Casting such a blanket statement is like saying it doesn't matter if it's a $50 set of speakers or $3000, if it's the same mastering it's gonna sound the same no matter.
     
    Drifter likes this.
  10. tomd

    tomd Senior Member

    Location:
    Brighton,Colorado
    If I want "better/more musical" sound for soul,chill out,garage,ska,goth my only choice is vinyl,if I go with high quality digital formats( SACD,24/96 DVD,Blu Ray Audio) my choices are the same old classic rock titles and prog.
     
    mikemoon likes this.
  11. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Generally playback gets better (IMO) as acoustic feedback is reduced.
     
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  12. Tommy SB

    Tommy SB Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santa Barbara, CA
    Any measurable feedback will be random in frequency and amplitude depending on the listening room parameters. The resulting coloration, if any, would be total unpredictable and therefore undesirable to me.

    I spent years trying to reduce acoustical and mechanical feedback to my vinyl playback system. My final solution was to build an isolated equipment closet for it. Seemed to help when playing my system at high levels...

    Peace
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2014
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  13. brooklyn

    brooklyn I'm all ears

    Location:
    Oklahoma
    While I much rather listen to vinyl through a 2 channel system, I have heard the effect you are talking about, it sound
    more live. I’ve also been listening to my vinyl through a Graham Slee Era V phono pre then through the Graham Slee Solo
    headphone amp with some pretty good results but there’s no live effect. It just lets me listen to vinyl late at night.
     
    Trapper J likes this.
  14. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    There have been many attempts to explain the appeal of vinyl by way of its flaws which is a bit odd. Stereo Review many years ago tried to explain the vinyl love by pointing to the slight response level depression in the presence region due to the mechanics of the tonearm-cartridge - record interaction. They argued the slight reduction in that frequency region produced a gentler more ingratiating sound than the (of course) more accurate CD. They also pointed to the slight phasiness of the top treble in vinyl playback as providing the illusion of greater ambiance.

    I think analog's virtues are due to its relative simplicity and straightforward approach to recording and reproducing soundwaves. After all analog was simple enough for Thomas Edison to patch an audio system together that didn't require even the most advanced manufacturing of his own time. I think the issue for digital relates to some fundamental problem in quantizing soundwaves. When that is better understood or bypassed then digital will sound more accurate than vinyl in all ways. But it will be incredibly complicated compared to analog.
     
  15. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Back to your theory about reverberations, I believe you are on the right track (no pun intended). The specs, the marketing, the latest-and-greatest, and the technical explanations all tell us that digital sounds better. The members of this forum who own speakers with built-in DACs and amplifiers, which ONLY have digital inputs tell us "time marches on". Yet, to many other ears, keeping recordings in analog, from microphone to speaker, still consistently sounds best. I agree with you, Burt, that these are indeed the "analog reverberations" which (Mr Burt points-out) each link in the ANALOG chain attempts to preserve as simply and directly as possible. The original instruments "vibrate" and transmit these vibrations through the air. The microphones , the cartridge, the signal in cables, the vacuum tubes (in my system), the speakers, and our ears all "vibrate". Every minute "reverberation" is preserved in this scenario. I see no point in modeling these analog signals into digital data, through complicated algorithms, than recreating every minute detail (theroetically) just to get back as close as possible to the original "vibrations" and "reverberations". Better just leave them in-tact, and do the best job of preserving them through every link-in-the-chain, adding as little noise and distortion as possible along the way.

    So this is MY theory, very close to yours. Just personal theories, mind you, to explain what we hear, that doesn't conform to the technical explanations.

    I prefer this approach: to explain what we hear, subjectively and philosophically, over letting technical data explain to us what we SHOULD hear.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2014
  16. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Well said as always Warren.
    Cheers
     
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  17. mem916

    mem916 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego
    These will always be slightly out of phase with the original signal and can only be detrimental, not beneficial. This is why we spend extra to get selected low-microphonic tubes, turntables with good suspensions (or put our un-suspended turntables on vibraplanes or various other isolation platforms). Some go as far as to put their turntables in other rooms to eliminate the effects you are mentioning. I believe analog sounds better because (when played back on proper equipment) it has a lower noise floor through the midrange where most of the important musical information lives.
     
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  18. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Think again!
     
  19. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Here is another theory that the spec watchers will not agree with. So, before THEY even get started, let me define for them what "noise floor" means. It is an audiophile term that is not measurable. It does not relate to S/N. It just means that the listener can hear (and differentiate) very quiet (i.e. low signal level) details, even in the presence of much louder simultaneous music signals.

    And, by the way, I agree with this 100%. Anyone who cares to compare a great sounding CD to the same performance in pure analog, will hear little tiny details (like a creaking chair, a guitar string squeek, or a violin "rosin" character) from the record more clearly, even though much louder sounds are present at the same time.

    My opinion, of course, from my personal listening and comparing experiences.
     
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  20. ROLO46

    ROLO46 Forum Resident

    Microphony is very evident with turntables and carts
    Record the out put of your table with the disc stopped and cart lowered, shout at the disc , you will hear it clearly,its a transducer ,like a microphone
    This feedback is not good in practice, it can only smear the information,never improve it.
     
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  21. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

    Location:
    ---------------
    What you re talking about is feedback. It is not a good thing. One of the things that sets high end tables apart is their isolation from that sort of feedback.
     
  22. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    "Never"? Burt's theory was based on the pleasing and realistic nature of reverberation. Not on strictly accurate reproduction. This is just his theory. I don't necessarily competely agree, but I see no reason to throw it out, considering that some of the best concert halls in the world have considerable "reverberation" and many mastering engineers add "post echo" and "reverb" to gain a more life-like presentation to an otherwise dry and "accurate" recording.
     
  23. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

    Location:
    ---------------
    You are not getting "reverberation" with feedback. And reverb is not a good thing in the listening room. Some reverb is great in the concert hall. Even then there is a balance for optimal sound.
     
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  24. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    If one wants to add different types of distortion there are many ways to do that. If one wants to listen what´s on the record it´s better not adding distortion. I would never consider 'the worse it gets, the better it gets'
     
    Trapper J likes this.
  25. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

    Location:
    ---------------
    I'm quite happy to have the right added distortion in the right amounts.
     
    Trapper J likes this.
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