Los Angeles feature film visual effects industry in full collapse

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by pcfchung, Jan 21, 2015.

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  1. PH416156

    PH416156 Alea Iacta Est

    Location:
    Europe
    Again, this is happening in every field. And it's disgusting.
    Horrible that a pro like your brother in law, who worked for decades in LA, has to travel the world to work just because the studios have become extremely cheap and they outsource instead of trying to keep US workers in the USA. Let's face it, all they want now are nomad slaves...:sigh:
     
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  2. Ghostworld

    Ghostworld Senior Member

    Location:
    US
    The "Dream Factory" has given way to the "Sweat Shop."

    You know, there's a group of about 20 people in the world who could put a stop to this nonsense of putting out of work all those kids who've devoted their lives to making movies...

    The movie stars. They are the one commodity over whom the studio have no real sway and who have grown bigger than the system. I've seen myself how even the big execs swoon when there is a star in the room. If George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Bradley Cooper, Channing Tatum, Christian Bale and Robert Downey Jr. would say "I'm not doing this part if the special effects in it get outsourced overseas and put my co-workers and fellow arists in the United States out of work" the studios might listen. I hope one of them comments on it at this year's oscars. They'd get a standing ovation, I'm sure. I'm sure behind the scenes, the studios would do a song and dance and might threaten the actor's own salaries would suffer, but a coalition of stars just pointing out this bull might actually have an effect.

    Kids (and adults) all over this country devote their lives to filmmaking -- passionately reading about it, going to school to study it, and then traveling to Los Angeles to be a part of this industry. And the greedy executives are screwing over generations of students and artists. I know a super bright young girl who recently finished studying digital special effects at the top art school in San Fran and she cries when you mention finding a job in the industry because her life's dream has been crushed by this turn of events. And this isn't even some hoop dream like becoming a movie star, this is a career kids actually study toward with the promise of finding a highly technical job in a real industry.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015
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  3. Captain Groovy

    Captain Groovy Senior Member

    Location:
    Freedonia, USA
    If she went to film school, studied visual effects, and thought "Hollywood" would welcome her with open arms, she ain't that bright.

    Film school is such a silly waste - she could have saved the money, worked as an intern at a company, worked her ass off, learned on the job, showed her value as an individual and gotten somewhere.

    Instead, she probably has debt, a useless piece of paper and zero real-world experience or connections.

    Bright people also are executives in waste management. I don't' feel bad for her one whit!

    You know supply and demand? Well the demand for people like her in the US has dropped. Adapt, die or play the odds. And yes, hers is a hoop dream. There a million just like her.

    I used to run into interns who were "really Directors" in their minds because they went to film school. I told them to go direct me a cup of coffee - I was busy working.

    Jeff
     
  4. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    That path your are describing doesn't really exist anymore. It happens but it's a rarity these days. You probably wouldn't even get an internship unless you're in a program of some sort. I've seen a few receptionist in post - working on set as an intern - paid job situations but even then, the receptionist had some sort of film educational back ground.

    I was having a similar conversation with a sound mixer in 2003. He never went to any school, he just got a job and someone thought he showed promise. But he remarked that now, everyone comes through some sort of program. He felt sorry for them if anything. By the time he was their age he was already assisting in the studio and working on smaller projects on his own.

    Film school maybe silly but these days you kind of have to go through that process. A lot of companies get their interns through those educational institutions.
     
  5. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Sometimes the budget did exist but it was spent somewhere else! :)

    You have the same situation in sound post. I won't name films but I knew the people who ran a company in the UK who got to do the sound on a major franchise film. The studio loved what they did so much they said "Do the next one. Only we can't pay you any more than we did last time." Too bad the work was actually more complex and required more time and effort.

    The company I used to work for got demands similar to that all the time. No more hourly rates, flat fee to do the work in X weeks.
     
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  6. AztecChimera

    AztecChimera Forum Resident

    Tax kickbacks are a big part of the problem. The pols whore themselves out with taxpayer money, and as soon as a studio gets a better deal somewhere else, they're gone.

    I was referring to Depp's $20M/film fee. Yes certainly each film's budget was far higher than that. My point is that the studio overpaid Depp for Mortdecai, when the smart thing to do would have been to offer the roll to a cheaper, British actor and hoped for a dark-horse hit, rather than giving JD a pile of cash in the faint hopes that his tarnished-after-five-straight-flops "star power" could rescue them.

    Ahem... what was that Elvis song, "A Little Less Condescension"?

    I'm an IT consultant; my last position as a salaried employee with benefits was in 2006. Since then my work's included two stints at Microsoft fielding escalations from the "do the needful and revert" gang in Bangalore. So I think I know a little bit more about outsourcing and benefits-free work than you are giving me credit for, mmm-K?

    Sounds like they need a lesson on writing a proper Scope Of Work. Any lawyers in Hollywood? Isn't California a union state? Or is the problem that California's labor laws are so cumbersome and restrictive that it's becoming cost-prohibitive to work there when there are cheaper alternatives?

    And your solution is....?

    Do you wear chinos? Are they American-made Bill's Khakis at $150 a pop, or did you save a nice chunk o'change by getting the ones made in the 3rd-world sweatshop? I actually wear Bill's myself. And American-made AG and JBrand jeans. Got a nice Hickey Freeman suit for interviews; pair it with Brooks Brothers shirts & ties both made in Garland, North Carolina. Throw on some Allen Edmonds (factory location: Wisconsin) medallion captoes. If I'm feeling dandyish I can top it off with a Stetson Inwood in steel grey, size 7 3/4. How "Made In The USA" is your wardrobe?

    I watched it last year, off of a link from SH.tv. What's your solution?
     
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  7. Captain Groovy

    Captain Groovy Senior Member

    Location:
    Freedonia, USA
    If true, still the same - you have to adapt/evolve/create something new for consumers. So it's "tougher"? Okay. So people can make a conscious decision to enter a field (or part of a field) where 5% of the people make 95% of the money. I won't shed a tear when their hometown dreams don't come through. One thing I've seen from everyone successful long term in this business - tenacity and the understanding that things change.

    I'm always impressed by those who innovate, fail, try again, go about things in a different way, fail again, repeat until they succeed. Then what they succeeded at may not last long-term, so they keep innovating...

    So an industry is changing - and it's leaving a city. Happens every day everywhere.

    If people went to the movies here in the US where the posters say "MADE IN ENTIRELY IN THE USA" and made ticket-buying decisions based on that, then studio heads, stockholders, etc. will all be quite happy to pay the price to do business in the United States.

    Everyone knows that most of The Simpsons animation is done in Korea. Do we viewers care? No. If someone were a traditional animator, they'd understand this and either make it a hobby, learn CG, or stick with hand-drawn animation and hope you're the best at what you do and you've shown your value so producers hire you for the limited work available in Burbank.

    I wish more people went to traditional hand-drawn animated films, but they don't. I paid my ticket to see the excellent The Princess and The Frog. Most people didn't - they are glued to CG. So that's that. I'm in the minority. A real bummer in my opinion, but nothing to be done. The public has spoken (and hand-drawn animation didn't live or die on that one film, but it was Disney's final traditional full length feature in that style).

    Things ain't what they used to be. Guess that's why people start threads like this... to vent?

    Jeff
     
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  8. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    You don't know a thing about the visual effects business. Have you watched the documentary I linked to? I've worked for three VFX companies in California (Complete Post, ILM, and Cinesite), and all of them had significant problems with budgets and layoffs. The four biggest VFX companies in the world used to be ILM, Weta Digital, Sony Pictures Imageworks, and Digital Domain; ILM has been steadily moving more and more people to Vancouver and Singapore, Imageworks has basically shut down and moved to Vancouver, and Digital Domain is a fraction of its former self. And Weta stays in business by employing freelance people who are let go when projects end.

    I believe there is no solution and we are absolutely doomed. Note that the guys at VFX Soldier recently announced they ran out of money and were not able to continue their legal proceedings against the studios who are always seeking tax breaks outside the U.S. ...

    https://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/

    The show is financed in America, produced in America, written in America (at Gracie Films on Washington Blvd. in Culver City), storyboarded in America (I believe on the Fox lot), all the voice work is recorded with American actors at Buzzy's Recording on Melrose in West Hollywood, all the editorial work is done on the Fox lot, and the final color, titling, and audio laybacks are done at Technicolor at Sunset & Gower. They farm out all the animation to Akom in Korea because they can. If any of the other work was done out of the country, the viewers would immediately notice the difference. And believe me, Fox would love to ship 100% of the work out of the country to a 3rd-world country if it were possible, because they are cheap bastids.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015
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  9. Claviusb

    Claviusb A Serious Man

    The Simpsons is storyboarded and animated at Film Roman.
     
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  10. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Judging by one review I read that was probably a good idea as it said Depp was the worst thing about the movie! But if they had gone with a cheaper, and likely not as well known actor, they might not have received any financing for the movie. If the reviews are right then what they really needed was for Depp to play the part properly. :)

    The VFX houses probably know how to write a proper Scope of Work. But it won't matter because the studios won't accept it. They dictate the terms. Typical big business behavior. You take it or leave it.
     
  11. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Sounds like you needed a little venting of your own. :)

    Anyway, I was merely pointing out that the traditional route you suggested doesn't really exist anymore.
     
  12. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Absolutely right -- my mistake. And Film Roman does excellent work and they're very nice people. Phil himself was terrific to work with when we did Garfield for his company in the 1980s and 1990s.
     
  13. Captain Groovy

    Captain Groovy Senior Member

    Location:
    Freedonia, USA
    No - no it isn't. Storyboarding, character creation, writing, is all done in the US. The actual production work is done in Korea (the actual animation - the arduous thankless work). I know Phil Roman (personally, yes).

    If you draw the line at the US, you'd see line drawings, sketches for backgrounds, fits and starts and about 1 frame per minute.

    They also do this kind of thing in the US for VFX. I thought the point of this thread was about the workers, not the higher up creatives at the studios...

    Now I think The Simpsons is a perfect example!

    Lunch with Phil two years ago...

    [​IMG]

    Jeff
     
  14. Claviusb

    Claviusb A Serious Man

    I worked on the Simpsons. They've been animating the damn show since it left Klasky-Csupo over 20 years ago-- and you don't know this?
     
  15. Captain Groovy

    Captain Groovy Senior Member

    Location:
    Freedonia, USA
  16. PH416156

    PH416156 Alea Iacta Est

    Location:
    Europe
    Yep. And unfortunately, not everyone's Keanu Reeves
     
  17. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    In order for that to happen the actors would need to care, which they really don't and if some do, they know they really can't insist on it anyway.

    Though, it would also be ridiculous for these extremely well paid actors to suggest the studios eat the extra costs while they still retain they're big salaries.
     
  18. seed_drill

    seed_drill Senior Member

    Location:
    Tryon, NC, USA
    Well, I'm all for trying and (deliberately) failing.
     
  19. Indeed - to throw in an anecdote, I know a guy whose daughter took the animation program at Sheridan and had a job lined up in the biz before she graduated. This was about four years ago, so I've no idea if she still has it, though...
     
  20. pcfchung

    pcfchung Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    London, England
    I don't see anyone coming through from Sheridan any more- not since they change it to a degree course. Tutors like Charlie Bonifacio had to leave because he didn't have the required degrees to teach. Charlie is one of the best animators around.
    At one time their students were all over the industry. Today you don't find many. They are still pumping out lots of students every year, just like all the other art school/ film schools. Where do they go? God knows.
     
  21. pcfchung

    pcfchung Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    London, England
    Back on topic- I agree with Vidiot that the future does look grim for LA.
    The funny thing is that there's plenty of work in VFX and animation industry. Look at all the big shows currently/ about to be in production- Star wars; Jungle book (x 2); Tarzan; Pan; Terminator; Monster Truck; Batman vs Superman....and all the character features at Disney; Dreamworks and Sony. And yet, people are getting laid off left right and centre.
    Even in London, which is supposed to one of few location that has subsidies- can't offer many jobs. Most of the jobs HAVE to be done in Montreal; Vancouver or Singapore, India.
     
  22. AztecChimera

    AztecChimera Forum Resident

    I told you I did. I even told you I watched it based on a previous post from sh.tv. Scroll up.

    Yet even though you are admitting that you didn't read my entire post, I did read your response in its entirety. Look man, you obviously know your stuff and I appreciate all the information you provide here (you are the closest thing we have here on the video/film side of things to Our Host). Based on the projects you've talked about working on, I've put a few sheckels in your pocket and it's very cool to hear about the sources you worked with and the beancounters you had to fight.

    That being said, it's pretty rude to delete 85% of my post and dismiss my experience as an IT consultant with "you don't know a thing". Especially when you didn't address the point I made about clothing. I guess you think it's OK for you to spend $19.99 on Made-In-China khakis instead of $150 Made-In-America ones, but still claim the "moral high ground" with respect to VFX outsourcing. Reality check: no, isn't.
     
  23. Vidiot nailed this one with 2 words: cheap bastids. Producers would replace their own Mothers on a movie if it put more money in their pocket. The prime directive is this: take other peoples money & pocket it. That's it. I posted it before & I'll post it again, if Producers could get away with paying movie technicians a dime they would.
     
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  24. Deesky

    Deesky Forum Resident

    This sort of thing isn't unique to the movie industry. It's all part of the general trend of corporations from all sectors, be it Information Technology, Manufacturing, Financial/Banking, Agriculture, Advertising, you name it, seeking maximum tax breaks and least labor costs anywhere in the world, while hiding profits in overseas tax havens. It's called rampant capitalism - you privatize the profits and social the risks. The entertainment industry is just one cog in a much bigger machine.
     
  25. Drew

    Drew Senior Member

    Location:
    Grand Junction, CO
    In the digital age, its just too easy to send work to a 3rd world country at the click of a button if it saves a few bucks. The stockholders demand it. It isn't going to change any time soon.
     
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