Argh! Brickwalling at HDtracks

I'm not sure what to make of this, the HD Tracks website's banner reads "High Definition Music | The World's Greatest-Sounding Music Downloads." Hi Definition Music means bit rate/depth *only*, .i.e. nothing to do with mastering at all which makes the OP's complaint specious. On the other hand, The World's Greatest-Sounding Music Downloads might imply mastering or perhaps even remixes that might conceivably make the recoding sound better (subjective of course) than the CD, album, or heaven forbid mp3.

Looking through the website in more detail, the only thing HD Tracks claims to do that's different from other streaming or download sites is bit depth/rate, see https://www.hdtracks.com/landing. All the claptrap about quality control and "our experts verify the content meets our quality standards" means nothing. Nada.

Back to basics, s*** in, s*** out.

 

So, I think you're reading a little bit much into my comments. I honestly have mixed feelings. While I wouldn't think to ask for a refund, that doesn't mean that I (or anyone) shouldn't. I just wouldn't think of it, simply because they don't claim anywhere that their files AREN'T brickwalled.

But, to be blunt: I think HDTracks is a bunch of deceptive snake-oil salesmen. Their marketing materials are very deceptive. I've personally had mixed experienced there, and won't purchase anything else unless I have providence and/or good feedback here or elsewhere. Your suggestion that they provide providence is a good one, but I'm not surprised to hear they aren't interested.

 

I had not seen much recent complaint about this though I am sure the issue continues and I don't believe I have seen any at Acoustic Sounds for their downloads yet I know they carry some of the exact same product as HD Tracks. I agree that I would like to know more about the source of the materials and who mastered it to try and have at least some guidance as to the potential before putting my money down. My purchases has fallen to a trickle, every now and then and this is one of the issues to cause my lack of interest. On the other hand being a little more realistic we must remember that HD Tracks and Acoustic Sounds are simply providing a product supplied by the record labels and that is really where the fault lies with these issues. On the other hand for the albums that you now buy on vinyl or CD just how many of them to you really know the exact provenance of the source material and who mastered it? Sure on some of the audiophile labels we might be blessed to know this information but in general it is few and far between that this information is supplied and even if you know who mastered it a lot of times on these projects it may be some nondescript staff person for the label and not some of the trusted names we look for.

At this point my purchases of high resolution download albums is generally limited to newly released and not remastered titles. They may be compressed but at least it was apparently intentional and not ruining an already existing piece of work.

 

I'm curious if anyone has done the same DR analysis on the same title, same bit rate between the two sites?

 

#1 HDtracks should start providing DR numbers for each album.
#2 HDtracks should contact record labels and let them know about this.
#3 HDtracks should contact record labels and make it clear that good dynamic range is very important to their customers and that albums with
high dynamic range compression will hurt sales.

Their customers would really appreciate this AND it would put pressure on records labels.

 

I don't know how you got that refund from HD tracks. On three separate occasions I've emailed them questions and or concerns and NEVER received any reply at all. And I'm a paying customer of theirs like anyone else. I've officially decided to use pono or other stores from now on because the customer support at HD tracks is non-existent...

 

I would think the answer is obvious. HDTracks is a very small company that has to deal with mega-monolithic record companies to stay in business. They have to walk a fine line to keep the relationships with the record conglomerates. Antagonizing the record companies by pestering them about their mastering practices or giving consumers potentially negative information for titles they handle could alienate them and cause hostility that would cause HDTracks from staying in operation. Remember even with all our shouting about brickwalling, to the average record exec it's hardly a blip on the radar, if they even understand what we're going on about at all.

Hi-Res downloads I'm sure are seen as a tiny, almost miniscule, part of the conglomerates' perceived going concerns. One they'd probably not even care to deal with if it meant more work for them.

It puts HDTracks between a rock and a hard place. Having to please both sides of the business chain with tact and sensitivity is nerve-wracking at best.

 

There is so much so....so...Monty Python-ish about this observation that it boggles my mind. That analog has more dynamic range potential than digital would have made brains explode back when CD's were first introduced. Good Lord how we have mangled the medium!

 

Well, not providing DR numbers (and selling brickwalled albums) is alienating customers. I certainly would never purchase an album from HDtracks without knowing about the dynamic range.

 

I understand and I agree, but for them it's got to be a "lesser of two evils" situation at best. Alienating a customer is bad business, absolutely, but alienating suppliers resulting in having no product to sell is even worse. I sure wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

 

It is true that digital has more potential, but we have mangled the medium to the point that analog is having more potential.

 

I'm feeling pretty dejected today.

For more than a decade, the predominate way to legally purchase digital music downloads has been to settle for lossy files from the likes of iTunes and Amazon. Oh yeah, CD ripping has always been an option, but I don't care to own or store physical media. I just want the music, in the best sounding form I can get it, at a fair price, with a minimum of hassle. While listening to music is a very rewarding hobby, obtaining the music should not be a hobby in and of itself.

So finally, HDtracks came on the scene, and now Pono. Both offering an alternative to lossy downloads, and in the case of Pono (because they offer both redbook and hi-res), the promise of being able to readily purchase what I desire.

At the very point in history where there is so much potential for great things to happen, this DR compression thing raises its ugly head. Can a lover of recorded music ever catch a break?

Look, I know on the metaphysical seriousness continuum, the quality of recorded music available for purchase is pretty trivial. The thing that depresses me is that there is no good reason why this has to be so. I keep comparing the music industry to other businesses because I just cannot believe how insane the music delivery system is. All I want to do is trade actual money for great sounding music. Why is this so hard?

Folks often use the buying experience of bygone eras and challenge me. For example, "Well did you ever know when a vinyl LP was remastered." No, I didn't. But I recall being able to go into a local record store and actually listen to an LP before I bought it.

Also, the advent of the internet and information age has drastically raised the bar for what a minimum standard of information ought to be. Any of us, when buying virtually any product online, have access to tons of information about not only that specific product, but also how it compares with competing products. But music downloads? No such luck. The fact that the information I seek was not routinely available 20 or 30 years ago has no bearing on the fact that it could (and should) be easily available now.

I feel like someone who wants to buy a sports car, online sight unseen, and is left to wonder if, when it arrives, the tires will up to the task. Or will the sports car be hamstrung by inferior tires. Of course, no one in their right mind would buy a sports car that way. Why does the music industry expect their customers to buy their products that way?

 

Hats off for your attention and guts to ask for a refund. There are a few I bought that I wish I could get a refund on for the very same reason you cite. Some time ago, I decided I will never buy again from them unless I first can read at least a couple reviews on the sound quality.

 

I purchased Tom Petty's "Wildflowers" from Pono -> Fantastic. I purchased Fleetwood Mac's "Mirage" from HDTracks -> Fantastic. I purchased Wilco's "Being There" from HDTracks -> Crap!!! Compressed and brick-walled. You just don't know what you are going to get.

 

Its a real crap shoot to say the least.
I will have to check out Mirage.

 

I'm glad you started this thread Atmospheric. I agree with you and I think the company did the right thing in refunding your money. The fact that the format makes it impossible to truly return it like you would a toaster or cd player is immaterial to this situation. You bought a product from someone who claims to sell the best sounding music in the world. Their words, not yours. I was probably dreaming when I thought buying a Hirez title would mean a great sounding album and not simply a brick walled title @192/24. While I know that is a blanket statement it is to make the point. When you sell a product as the best sounding and it isn't then you should be refunding money. While I can see why refunds for every tiny excuse would be disastrous for HDTracks or other Hirez stores, for people who truly listen to their music and want high quality, there are going to be disappointments. How much was HDTracks out for that transaction? Not much from where I stand.

Like anything else I guess. Buyer beware and don't assume that Hirez means High Quality. Sadly, they aren't necessarily linked.

 

Clearly a buyer beware situation with these hi res downloads, however, it shouldn't be the situation.
They should be required by law to provide details on who did the mastering, date done, tapes used etc.
Fortunately I live in the past and only collect physical media.

 

I'm grateful to those that buy and then post the DR-info on http://dr.loudness-war.info. There I see that the Pono "Wildflowers" has DR 12, a wonderful step up from the 1994 CD that has DR 9! HDtrack's "Mirage" has DR 14, same as the vinyl and even better than the 1982 CD with DR 13!

 

Yes--I've long said that I, as a consumer don't care if we go back to vinyl or go to SACD(circa 2000) or high rez download--what I NEED, is the assurance that THIS is the best sounding version. Meaning--this is the version mastered for sonics and active listening.

I learned in the early 2ks that they weren't going to make that SACD/DVD-A. I've learned over the last few years, they're not going there with vinyl....and not with the revival of high sample rate PCM.

I wish more people would do what Shelby Lynne did with her Grammy winning "I Am Shelby"---it was a crushed (circa 99/00) clipped CD....that she had remastered for SONICS....and put on both CD and vinyl. Hugely improved over the original, which I always loved, despite not sounding great. But, huge difference--she owns the rights to her masters. That's not often the case. I don't think people realize this.

 

this is a bridge much too far for me.

i'm living in the past as well though, as i only collect physical media.

 

For Stadium Arcadium that is embarrassingly bad. The vinyl is incredibly dynamic and open. Sadly it's not just affecting rock music, it's even happening with jazz. So many of the HDTracks jazz downloads are much less dynamic than the audiophile vinyl reissues from Analogue Productions and Music Matters.

 

Great info. on Wildflowers and Mirage. I have the target Don Henly, so personally am not interested in a hi-res highly compressed version, though, for all I know, it still could sound great. Any other titles known to be more highly compressed in hi-res? What about FM Rumours on HD tracks vs Pono - is it the same as the DVD-A?

 

Side 2 of BTPB is a real favorite of mine. All that great synth work by Michael Boddicker and Randy Newman. I'd love to hear a dynamic hi-res version of that stuff. In the meantime, the MFSL redbook will have to suffice.

 

Great comparison (CD vs Vinyl) >>>

 

Does the MOFI use the full 6:28 of Sunset Grill?