Joni Mitchell: I'm better than Dylan but they snub me...

How about more popular... than Jesus but he didn't say better.

 

There's no doubt that sexism has played a role in the reception of Joni Mitchell and other artists, but in Joni's case, there's a more serious problem: regardless of her talent, she's coming off as really stupid, and (more seriously even than that) incapable of realizing when she's coming off as stupid.

 

Terrible example nonetheless, one song, one line, doesn't say squat about any one artist.

 

Agreed. Given that she's gone out of her way to position herself as being more like a serious jazz artist than an ordinary folk singer, she shouldn't be too surprised that her appeal is a bit more selective. I respect her artistry, but often more "challenging" artists fail to get the same kind of traction as more accessible popular artists. No big shock there. The fact that she's largely withdrawn from making new music now would tend to exacerbate her relative obscurity.

 

Popularity can be measured...I feel like quality (in the case of art) is pretty subjective.

 

Well, on the basis of this quote ("I'm liable in interviews to get frustrated and become stupidly boastful. I just want things to be acknowledged. It's like, don't make me say it."), she does seem to be aware of this tendency.

 

no one stopped her from playing jazz.....i think she is bit off her rocker.....

 

Seems she had some sort of problem with the Rolling Thunder tour 1975 and has had a snit on ever since.

I like Joni, must have half a dozen of her albums , but even if she was better (???) than Bob (which she's not..) she gains nothing, fat zero from saying it. Someone should take her aside and tell her, enough already. We know that our artists aren't without flaws, and the public will tolerate both oddness and a degree of selfishness as part of the creative spirit..but people will turn away from bitterness, always have and always will. Shakespeare's in the alley, and he said it so it must be true.

 

Off-topic, but I'm pretty sure that character was based on Doc Pomus, not Dr. John.

 

Regarding the alleged sexism of male rock critics, I would tend to agree that it exists, but would argue that Mitchell has benefited tremendously from that sexism, as she has been anointed as the token female artist that they take seriously, while so many other genius women are marginalized or ignored. I like Joni Mitchell a lot, but Judee Sill, Carly Simon, Lauro Nyro, Judy Collins, and Joan Baez spend more time on my turntable, but all of those women get one-tenth the male rock crit love that Mitchell gets. Not to mention totally forgotten women like Dory Previn. Carly Simon is regarded as the hot chick whose nipples you can see on an album cover, although I find that album to be a greater artistic triumph than Blue, sorry.

 

Never really understood the axe Joni grinds. I was/am a total Dylan guy, but it always came out of left field to me her bringing up her gripes with Bob in what seems like the last 15 or so years. I mean, i caught her a couple of shows opening for Bob in Toronto & Ottawa years ago (around 99 i think) and i was REALLY looking forward to her set and sadly i just ended up out in the lobby for the second night in Ottawa.

I've also heard Randy Newman give a couple of digs at Bob from time to time, Paul Simon too, i think they've kinda cooled off of that of late. It can't be that he's SO popular...cause you don't (at least i don't) hear people go after the Beatles like that. Or that he hasn't worked for it, i want to say it's the voice that bothers them, that THAT voice, HIS voice is the one still trodding along, in the early days of his youth to the elder musician he is now.

...almost a Mozart/Salieri thing i want to say. I think Joni equates his "lack" of vocal range/subject matter as her being better than him. But man, Picasso didn't need to have the 64 Crayola box with the sharpener to make beautiful art, give him a blue and a black and he's set to go.

Makes me sad more than anything, cause Blue really is one of my favorite albums of all time-just brilliant. In his earlier days Bob would not hesitate to call someone out for sure, but that he hasn't responded to Joni, Paul & Randy says a lot too. Besides how do you PROVE you're a better _______ than so & so? If it's her falling for bait in interviews, allright, but that her or anyone doesn't understand how speaking like that makes them really look is beyond me. You don't see Cohen doing this (bad example, too classy to do it even if he felt like that)

 

Bob Dylan was one of the top 10 icons of the last century, whether Joni Mitchell is more talented or not doesn't even come into it. Hell is it because she's a woman, no. It's because Bob Dylan did it at the right time.

 

I'm a bigger fan of Joni than Bob, but better than Dylan? **** no!

 

I'd venture that Joni (much as I am a fan) probably has some tougher times than is generally known- she's had some serious stuff happen in her life-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lkers-heartache-giving-daughter-adoption.html

 

Or the occasion didn't suit him. His difficulty rising to that particular occasion had a lot more to do with discomfort than it did with musicianship. So, I'd say his croaking in that song shows he had no idea that day about what to do interpretation-wise. I don't mean to offend you directly, but the idea that Dylan does not have a "good grasp on what his voice can do" is more than a little laughable. I think you're right that some of the singers on that session (and Lauper is a fine example) did terrific things with their bits, and Dylan did not, but that doesn't say much about Dylan beyond his failure to do anything amazing that day. It's not like he hasn't done plenty of amazing things with his voice over the years.

As far as Mitchell is concerned. Her reputation as a genius is secure, and what she has to say in interviews is sometimes interesting and illuminating, and sometimes best ignored.

L.

 

OP's translation says that Mitchell says it ain't funny to be labeled as a female Dylan. Am I missing the rest of the interview? The thread title says "I'm better than Dylan"...is that in the interview? Oftentimes, thread titles don't mirror linked content.

 

I think she's Frank Grimes and Dylan is Homer Simpson.

Dylan takes his half-ass, devil may care attitude, and gets accolade after accolade, while Mitchell gives up her daughter for adoption, gets polio or some other rare disease, and slaves over her vocals/music and production... and what does she get.... a one room apartment under a bowling alley and a night job at the foundry... lol

 

Ummm, +1... Going back and looking, you're right. The OP only says "better than Dylan" in the thread title. In the quotes he posted from the interview he quotes her as saying 'It' ain't funny to be labeled as 'female Dylan'... Big difference!!!

 

Joni Mitchell was on Tavis Smiley recently. He read from her liner notes a story of Joni listening to Planet Waves and then Court and Spark with Bob Dylan and David Geffen and others. She says Planet Waves was "not one of his best" but everyone loved it and when she played her record Bob pretended to be falling asleep (to imply boredom) and Geffen nodded feebly. Then they continued talking about Bob's work. Tavis goes on to read that she referred to herself as a Jackie Robinson. Joni laughs heartily at her own words in a very awkward moment of conceit. She then goes on to tell Tavis they did that to her because she had it hard and trotted out the old chestnut "there weren't that many woman in the business" line that so many other woman in the business use. She also says that John Lennon did not like it either and thought it was too sophisticated, but dismissed him as being too working class to get it. She comes off as a delightful mix of bitter, arrogant and elitist, quite a combination. Nothing as charming as a highly successful entertainer who can still find reasons to feel sorry for themselves. I really like Tavis. He gives a well researched interview, but he of course kisses her ass and seems to be eating it all up. Especially when she says they didn't get it because she "was thinking like an african instead of a schooled white person." Which, I guess was meant as compliment to africans, but mostly just another way for her to brag about herself.

Here's the full video, the story is around the 6:30 mark
http://video.pbs.org/video/2365376976/

 

I don't know Italian, so I'm relying on web translations, but the first sentence in the article begins by saying "More original than Dylan in music and thought" (which is not in quotations) and then has Joni saying "I've said it and I will say it again." So as best I can discern, it appears Joni is at least agreeing with the assertion that she's more original than Dylan, if not saying it herself. Perhaps someone who knows Italian can clarify.

 

Drawing global conclusions about anyone's musical abilities based solely on "We Are the World" is bizarre and quite arbitrary.

 

Seriously the best thing she could do at this point to have a "legacy" is to let Taylor Swift play her in a movie- it might be the only thing to make people under 50 at least take a look at her music. Otherwise it's people arguing about a couple of 70+ year olds pissing about stuff that happened in 1963

 

On my phone so won't watch the video but just a side comment. We had a thread recently on that Lennon remark to Mitchell. I think she had said he was drunk and suggested she add fiddles (? is that right?). I took it as a funny story that she was telling on herself. Others interpreted it in an entirely different manner.

I can't read the original Italian, but I would think that the interviewer's question (maybe even series of questions) would be important to offer context to her replies. Was there a theme for the interview, etc etc.

 

You can downplay Dylan if you want, but Woody? GTFO.

Seriously. I HATE the way artists think. As if it's a zero sum game or ranking system. They don't understand their audiences at all.


EDIT: and yes I know we "rank" things here all the time, but we're generally just bullsh*ttin' and goofing off. There never was or has been a need to rank art or create desert island playlists. Artists need to grow up.

Is it sexist of me to like Sandy Denny "better than" Joni?

EDIT 2: Sorry to all the jazz cats out there, but this supposed trump card of jazz being the holiest of music is a major turn off for me. That and I don't like the music much. (and as a matter of fact, I do think Coltrane is on par with Davis. So what?)

EDIT 3: I'm going to use raga as a trump card anytime I hear about "keeping up with the jazz players." Keep up with Ravi Shankar. "I wasn't thinking Mingus, I was thinking Shankar."

EDIT 4: All that said Joni is a fine songwriter with nothing to worry about regarding her legacy. Not much fun though.