Whiplash

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Monosterio, Nov 12, 2014.

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  1. Monosterio

    Monosterio Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Florida
    The director was not going for realism. Please read my earlier post on this (on page 3).
     
  2. somnar

    somnar Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC & Amsterdam
    I'm not sure what you're referring to. It seems to me that, while the role of Fletcher was meant as a cartoon, the rest was meant to be taken as realism.
     
  3. Monosterio

    Monosterio Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Florida
    Never mind then.
     
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  4. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    I was pointed to A.O. Scott's review in the New York Times. He liked the movie, but the negative reader comments are insightful.

    A poster by the name drumhead said:

    Great performances, but utterly inaccurate on drumming technical matters. Teller's right hand is clenched and his fingers pinched tightly into the palm as he tries to play faster and faster, which is the opposite of correct technique. His hands are covered with blisters and they bleed, which is absurd, as no properly trained drummer, especially one who is supposed to be a rising great in the drum world, would be doing that to his hands.

    Modern drumming technique requires a loose grip and effortless motion, which Buddy Rich had. Buddy had soft hands with not a callous on them because he never "gripped" the stick so much as letting it move in his relaxed hands, with wrist motion, not muscle, supplying the speed. One plays faster by using less effort, not by exerting brute force on the sticks. For this reason, all of the practice scenes in the film are simply laughers from a knowledgeable drummer's perspective.​

    My favorite comment was:

    Whiplash is Mommie Dearest with a better score.​
     
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  5. C6H12O6

    C6H12O6 Senior Member

    Location:
    My lab
    I recall that being a huge revelation as a kid, it's a night and day difference. I can't believe anyone claiming a background in percussion would think tensing up is somehow the key to speeding up. The faster you play, the looser and more relaxed you need to be, once I learned that, I was able to hit notes far easier and far quicker than I thought possible.

    Bruford was part of a completely difference scene, and I think that's why he doesn't address any of the problems I had with the film. I knew some local jazz players in Chicago. Some of the movie is applicable to academia and collegiate athletics, but honestly, it feels totally removed from anything I've witnessed in the jazz scene. It is music that feels very important, but it's also incredibly communal and especially nowadays humble. When I say humble, I mean you're not making money, not unless you're Wynton Marsalis or touring Europe. Nowadays, you pretty much accept that most people aren't going to hear you. You can spend a lot of time on it, but you need a day job that probably will eat up just as much of your time, and it has to. I think that reality is a big reason why that "life view" I see in Whiplash doesn't really exist in the jazz world, at least not anymore. (Maybe it did in Buddy Rich's day.)

    More glaring is the lack of enjoyment and intellectual curiosity in jazz. That's what drives most people to take up jazz even though the professional pay-off is likely to be so low. They rarely talk about the music itself or take communal joy in it. Jazz doesn't need a Rocky like climax to be fun, people still manage to enjoy it even when they're stuck playing to two or three patrons on a weeknight in the middle of a blizzard. (I've been to plenty of those at The Green Mill.)

    And I agree with Thomson and Richard Brody: forget Buddy Rich. If you need a false idol, follow Max Roach.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2015
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  6. Monosterio

    Monosterio Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Florida
    God, I hope this movie wins the best picture Oscar.
     
  7. lbangs

    lbangs Senior Member

    1) I care as much about this film being an accurate representative of jazz and the current jazz scene as I do that Chef is a precise recreation of the current culinary world. Both films convinced me of the plausibility of an environment to a point where I bought the plot.

    2) I don't know how to use the spoiler tag, so I'll tread gently here, but anybody who thought this film bore a Rocky ending didn't find the whole affair as complex as I did. I think Let the Right One In would be a far closer comparison.

    Shalom, y'all!

    L. Bangs
     
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  8. progrocker71

    progrocker71 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    If you make a science-fiction film and invite a bunch of scientists to watch it, you're liable to end up with a huge list of inaccuracies and complaints. But that infinitesimally small minority of viewers don't share the same view as the rest of the general public that go to watch the film and enjoy it for what it is (entertainment) and not what it isn't (a documentary).

    Whiplash is the same thing, except now the infinitesimally small minority of viewers are drummers and die-hard jazz fans who are doing most of the complaining. I'm a jazz fan, I saw many of the same errors that people are complaining about. However, knowing that the director of the film was not trying to make a 100% realistic depiction of jazz and jazz instruction I took off my "jazz fan cap" and put on my "movie fan cap" while watching Whiplash. And I was entertained by it, because I set the appropriate expectations.

    I don't think it's a film about jazz, it's not a film about drumming, it's a character study about a war of wills between an instructor and his student. Jazz just happens to be the setting. As a depiction of psychological warfare between these characters I think it succeeds admirably and is a very entertaining film.
     
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  9. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    There are two ways to do a spoiler.

    The first is this:

    Click on the 4th icon from the right in the toolbar above.
    That is the "insert" tool, and when you click on it with the left mouse button, a drop-down menu will appear with the commands:
    • Quote
    • Spoiler
    • Code
    • Strike-through
    When you click on "Spoiler", a box will pop up prompting you to enter a title for the spoiler.

    Boo!

    I just did that, added the title "Something scary" and the code for a spoiler appeared here. It is a left square bracket, the word SPOILER in all caps, the equals sign, quote marks, the words "Something scary" a right square bracket, then the space to insert the spoiler content, followed by another left square bracket, a slash (the one shared with the question mark on most US keyboards), the word SPOILER again and another right square bracket.

    The second way is to just type the above in yourself.

    I'm neither a drummer nor much of a jazz fan. I am a music lover and a film fan.

    This film gets more things wrong than it gets right.
     
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  10. lbangs

    lbangs Senior Member

    Thank you!

    I was trying the second method but was stupidly using greater and less than symbols instead of brackets.

    Shalom, y'all!

    L. Bangs
     
  11. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    No problem, glad to help.
     
  12. progrocker71

    progrocker71 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    In your opinion. Which I don't happen to share.
     
  13. amoergosum

    amoergosum Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    [just my opinion]

    Absolutely absurd story (often laughable) with a ridiculous last act.
    This movie didn't even deserve to be nominated for an Oscar.

    [just my opinion...relax]
     
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  14. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I had the same issue with the movie, which is that no-one in it seems to like music (and the music they do play, with the incredibly complicated additive and stop-time rhythm parts and lack of solos, struck me as the dumbest kind of hyper-arranged pseudo-jazz). When we walked out of the movie, after the final incredible display, I said to my date, "Well, with all that talent in jazz drumming, he has the potential to make literally HUNDREDS of dollars a year."

    I did love the movie, though.
     
  15. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    My main objection isn't Jazz specific, or even about music. It is the question of whether or not human beings perform better for abusive jerks. The movie says that they do, and I and many others disagree. This is something that anyone, no matter what they have done in their life, has a valid opinion about. Re-read this thread and you'll see that is what the majority of the negative comments are focusing on. And it's not an either/or - Drill SGT with a baton OR the Romper Room lady giving out plastic "participant" trophies. I've seen dozens...no hundreds...of kids perform music far better than they ever thought they could under the tutelage of inspiring teachers, and never, ever, not one single time has a musician told me of a teacher who abused them into better performance. On the other hand, I do know people who told me of bad teachers who crushed their musical dreams.

    Again, I'm not a jazz fan - I like some female jazz vocalists, and most of the instrumental jazz I like is pre-Bop. What I am is a movie fan who saw nearly 100 films in the theater last year (and that was a light year). It takes a really dreadful film for me to find no redeeming qualities.

    It is entertaining in the same sense and to the same extent as professional wrestling, which was the subject of Darren Aronofski's excellent The Wrestler. That film made me care about a subject that I have no interest in, but was so well-written and well-directed that it moved me to tears. Whiplash, on the other hand, is the work of a hack. Hacks go for the easy solution. A "battle of wills" is difficult to write - but a scene of one character slapping the other around is easy.
     
  16. kippy

    kippy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, USA
    "Whiplash" is a great movie that works on many levels. Does the ends justify the means? Must you suffer to create great art? Is is worth sacrificing personal relationships for professional greatness? Is is worth sacrificing personal relationships for artistic greatness? Is art more important than love? The Jazz teacher was a very complex character.
    The movie reminded of "The Boys from Brazil". The teacher was trying to create a drummer instead of Hitler.
     
  17. amoergosum

    amoergosum Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    Review on IMDB >>>

    "Musical Slander

    I work at Berklee College of Music, arguably the best contemporary music college in the country, and I can tell you that it is absolutely the opposite of everything you see in this film. In case there are any high school students out there that have watched this movie and are wondering how realistic it is, I thought I'd write a review that separates fact from fiction:

    Would any college in the country employ a teacher who calls a student "fag*ot" or throws things at their students? No. They'd be fired faster than you can say "ACLU".

    Is becoming a great musician about discipline? No way. Self-discipline and passion for music, sure, but the militaristic methods employed by the teacher in this movie wouldn't fly at any serious music college. I could see this type of behavior (to a milder degree) in a marching band leader or a malcontent high school band leader, maybe, but at a serious college level, teachers are real musicians: laid back, creative types that work to inspire their students.

    Would students put up with a teacher like the one in the movie? Not a chance. Even in an academic setting, band leaders need to earn the respect of their followers. And serious musicians are generally too laid back to put up with control freaks. Again, maybe marching band... but a serious jazz band? Nah.

    Is a music college all about competitions? No. Although students may perform in competitions, many music colleges & conservatories don't officially participate in competitions as an entity.

    Is it a sin to be slightly out tune? For an advanced musician... not so much. At a music college, students learn that "in tune" isn't a straight-forward thing (equal temperament vs just intonation, etc.). They learn to trust their ears.

    Is it possible to practice drums until you bleed? No. Not unless you're an idiot. Good drummers hold their sticks with a light but firm grip.

    Is being a good musician about playing really fast? Good drummers don't practice as hard and as fast as they can all the time. They practice control, which is just as much about playing soft and slow as it is about playing fast.

    Did Charlie Parker get the nickname "bird" because someone threw a cymbal at his head? No. There are a lot of stories about how he got his nickname (one has to do with finding a chicken by the side of the road and eating it), but I don't think that's one of them.

    I wouldn't have minded the distortion of reality of the movie had anything – anything at all – good to say about music. But it doesn't. It paints music as being about discipline, obsession, ego, and control... and that's just BS."


    Source:
    www.imdb.com/title/tt2582802/reviews?filter=chrono
     
  18. I loved SO many things about this movie (the performances, the directing, the actors, almost everything actually) -- and yet I was also really put off by how unrealistic some of it was -- plus I really hat that whole "abusive relationship" thing between a mentor and student, or higher ranking officer and plebe, or whatever. It's probably realistic in some contexts, sure, but I'm **personally** offended by it, so it took a little effort to not get personally all pissed off by it, in the moment, during the film itself.

    The one totally laugh-out-loud moment for me (and I did laugh out loud LOUDLY too, as my wife can verify), was when the band-director character said some big rep from Blue Note Records was going to be at the band competition, and if people played their cards right, there could be a million-dollar contract riding on it for them (I'm totally paraphrasing, but that was what was implied, if not a literal quote) -- and I totally lost it.

    Phhhhhht, yeah right, million-dollar contract for a jazz musician in an INSTRUMENTAL large-combo jazz setting of students (even at their level). Not a chance in hell these days. I'm guessing MAYBE 20-25 years ago there might have been a $100K contract (one-album deal) on the table for the right player, but even then, those would have had to have been VERY few and far between (one in a million chance). But NOW, when Blue Note barely has much more than 15 active artists on the label, maybe 20 at most? -- not a chance in hell anybody's gonna make that kind of scratch playing real (instrumental) jazz, of any sort.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2015
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  19. MRamble

    MRamble Forum Resident

    Saw the movie this weekend and loved it. I'll take any movie about jazz with nods to Buddy Rich. Ending was a surprise but...

    Final scene was great. Fletcher admitting that he new Andrew ratted him out was a surprise--plus trying to ruin him in front of probably the most important gig of his career was downright awful.

    1. Fletcher knew Andrew would probably storm off after playing a song he wasn't ready for so what exactly did he have planned for the rest of the performance without a drummer? With no drums...how exactly was he going to continue on? With Andrew off stage we hear Fletcher say to the crowd: "We're going to slow it down for you now..." So he was going to play "Whiplash" and "Caravan"---2 very percussion-heavy tunes without drums?

    2. When Andrew comes back on stage and gets behind the kit, he rips into a frantic drum beat. Everyone is confused and has no idea what's going on. Andrew tells the bass player that he'll cue him in. The rest of the band eventually follows his lead. Couldn't help but wonder if that would have actually happened in real life. Here's this dude that just made a fool of himself and the whole band and now you're going to take orders from him?? I would have expected a little more reluctance from the members of the band before all jumping in with Andrew.

    3. The last moment Fletcher and Andrew share while Andrew is in the middle of his solo seemed a bit forced. Why would Fletcher give Andrew the satisfaction of redeeming himself? He could have easily stopped him at any point but instead lets him go. I get that Fletcher was overtaken by Andrew's performance but it seems a little far-fetched considering the jerk he was throughout the entire movie.

    All tedious points, I know. I liked the movie and thought it was fun but definitely were parts that made me roll my eyes a bit.
     
  20. tommy-thewho

    tommy-thewho Senior Member

    Location:
    detroit, mi
    Anyone watch J.K. Simmons on SNL criticizing the band?

    Hilarious....
     
  21. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    Saw this tonight - the last of the 8 BP noms for me!

    And it's my favorite. Not a truly great movie, IMO, but a very good one. It plays a bit like "Officer and a Gentleman" with drums, but it has subtlety and good character portraits, which makes it a winner IMO...
     
  22. Monosterio

    Monosterio Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Florida
    On your third spoiler point: You totally missed what Fletcher was all about.
     
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  23. amoergosum

    amoergosum Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
  24. Freedom Rider

    Freedom Rider Senior Member

    Location:
    Russia
    Exactly. It was so grotesque and over the top at times I couldn't even take it seriously. It was almost like a black comedy.
     
  25. Larry Mc

    Larry Mc Forum Dude

    Howard Stern said this was his favorite movie. He had J.K. Simmons on his show and said he was a shoe - in for Best Supporting Actor and He thought Whiplash should get best movie.
    J. K. Simmons said the writing is what made the role desireable
     
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