The Great USB cable debate poll

You could win a class action lawsuit against these companies if their claims are indeed false. I wonder if they're insured for that.

You can't make claims on your label that are deceptive. Companies get away with it most of the time. But not all the time - POM Wonderful pomegranate juice class action lawsuit being a recent example.

 

As you know, I'm not a big fan of that PDF. What it shows me is that every sample has errors (the red goes all the way across) regardless of what cable is used.

 

Are we far from the day when we'll have 'hot stamper' hard drives? I can see the ad copy now:

Think all hard drives are the same? Think all hard drives of a specific make/model are the same? We've tested hundreds of them and are offering those with only the most outstanding music reproduction capabilities. The layman may think that all Western Digital model # 123QQQ hard drives are identical, but we've painstakingly tested hundreds and found dramatic differences. Deeper soundstage. Less noise. Clearer highs. Bass that isn't muddy. Why the differences? Hey, we're not scientists but we trust our ears. You should too.

Prices start at a reasonable $999.

 

Yes, and the thread does a fantastic job of deconstructing the methodology, which turned out to show inconsistent results. The final posts show some very astute critique of digital waveform analysis though, which would be very informative to many of the posters in this thread.

 

Yes, I am quire sure of that too. The question is if a premium cable can make a difference, even if subtle.

I am also very skeptical here, but still do not like the oversimplification or misleading information...

 

Read the thread if you are interested. Lots of crabby back and forth. The last page is pretty key though. It comes down to critique of methodology and progress.

 

Checking out how SPDIF works as an example. This link might help explain the concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_Manchester_encoding

 

I wasn't familiar with that case, and it made for an interesting read. I think in this case it would have to be somebody like monoprice suing the more exotic cable companies. Virtually every other make of cables takes part in the fun. As a guy who used to sell $100 Belkin Gold printer cables and lied to customers that they were better, I can attest to this. (I was 18, give me a break!)

 

This got a chuckle from me and at the same time made me profoundly sad.

 

I'm sorry to hear that. If you inferred that from any of my posts, I apologize. For myself, I was giving answers to those making absolute claims about theory, not any specific instances of any particular setup's measurability or audibility. I can't speak for other's posts.

I am starting to see this as the main problem with this thread, from what I can tell. There are many different facets being clumped up and jumped between and there could be a factor with language (there is switching between absolute and specific statements and examples being used. For example, "can" is different than "will"). What does everyone think about breaking down the topic into sub-pieces for discussion?

#1 - Given a particular source device, the output of different USB cables CAN or CANNOT be theoretically different
#2 - Given a particular source device, the output of different USB cables WILL or WILL NOT be theoretically different
#3 - Given a particular source device, the output of different USB cables can be measurably different
#4 - Given ANY source or DAC, the output of the DAC can be theoretically different for different USB cables
#5 - Given ANY source or DAC, the output of the DAC can be measurably different for different USB cables
#6 - Given ANY source or DAC, the output of the DAC can be audibly different for different USB cables
#7 - Given a PARTICULAR source or DAC, the output of the DAC can be theoretically different for different USB cables
#8 - Given a PARTICULAR source or DAC, the output of the DAC can be measurably different for different USB cables
#9 - Given a PARTICULAR source or DAC, the output of the DAC can be audibly different for different USB cables

Should anything else be added or modified? What do people think of this structure? Once we get the pieces agreed upon, maybe each one can get its own thread to keep things clear.

Although I'm sure some of us still won't see eye to eye, we might have more understanding and agreement if we see the topic broken down and discussed with more specificity.

 

Complete non-starter.

 

No worries, I wasn't referencing any of your posts with that statement. You've been perfectly reasonable. I'm talking about the folks who have no problem saying they don't actually care what science/logic/proof/etc says, and that people who care about science are flat earthers, never mind the quantum leap of logic that statement requires.

 

Well, I think this could be a start, but we'd eventually all circle back to the same conclusion, that some people say they hear a difference when they try more expensive cables, but most people don't hear a difference when they try expensive cables, which is consistent with the data that this poll has collected.

I made some jokes earlier about how people who say they don't hear differences are told they don't understand, as if the moment one finishes reading a long whitepaper on USB transmission protocols suddenly they start hearing the differences, and it's true - exchanging interpretations of data isn't going to make me start hearing things or you stop hearing things. It's kind of fun and I've learned a tremendous amount about USB protocols that I didn't know before, but I don't feel any differently about the actual matter at hand.

And I'll say in general, while it was a bit cathartic to vent frustration at the people I described in my previous post for their eccentric behavior towards the subject, I for one don't have any interest in simply poking fun at people who like to use expensive cables, that isn't and was never my goal.

 

A fact that might be interesting to some:

Over at Head-Fi, the "Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories" sub-forum is designated as "DBT-Free" (Double Blind Testing).

So there is precedent for keeping science out of cable discussions on internet forums.

 

And this, basically, is why these discussions are fascinating to me. Why would anybody take this attitude? I admit, I'd feel a little trepidation if I was asked to ABX my big expensive McIntosh with a Best Buy receiver. I'd certainly like to think I could consistently pick it, but if I couldn't, I'd kind of feel like an idiot. But I'm at least self-aware enough to admit this.

I understand the perspective of the people who say that some changes you have to live with for a while to get the true benefit of, but that's an acknowledgement of a subtle change, and we're constantly reminded this isn't about subtle changes.

One would think given the dichotomy we see in the poll, that 28% say they hear something that the remainder does not, would basically itself be proof that IF there is a difference, it's definitely subtle. But the fact this can't be agreed on is what keeps me so fascinated by the topic.

 

When I first came to the forum, I naively thought that most or all would be super geeky "science-y" types. Man, was I shocked the first time I saw the term, "mid-fi" posted. I remember feeling like I had a complete misunderstanding of the culture of hi-fi, if there is such a thing. When someone posted comparing the hi-fi hobby to collecting (and presumably consuming) fine wine, you could have knocked me over with a feather!

Don't misunderstand, there are some here who I believe understand the electrical science of cable material and construction. But culture often prevails over reason. And I would suggest that the "Great USB Cable Debate" is more of a cultural phenomenon than a scientific one.

 

If someone took your McIntosh stuff out and put in a Cheap Best Buy Receiver, without you knowing it, and you sat down for a 2 hour listening session with a blindfold on, listening to some of your favorite recordings. I guarantee you would be thinking what the hell is wrong with my system.

 

Ego becomes a very large factor in any audio discussion about whether one thing or another makes an audible difference. A very large factor.

Doug

 

As with any scientific approach, assumptions would need to be stated upfront. There *must* be a minimum specification in place for the sake of not going down a "this cable sounds different because it's broken/because it's USB 1.0/because it's actually not a cable but several pieces of twine with some tape wrapped around the ends" rabbit hole.

 

While I don't necessarily disagree with your argument, your ironclad certainty kind of proves the point. You simply don't have enough information to make such a "guarantee".

 

You cannot say that. You cannot guarantee that. It depends on whether you are operating the devices within their linear modes and within their specifications. If both amplifiers are operating within the same output and distortion specifications, sufficiently low enough to be inaudible, the amplifiers will sound the same.

Doug

 

I stand by what I said, unless someone is completely tone deaf or has other serious hearing afflictions.

 

There are the Chosen Ones that can hear sounds and detail that even science is incapable of registering. Obviously these people have super powers and use their powers for good by selling $250 USB cables that cost $8 to manufacture.

 

And all I'm saying is that your unflinching certainty could be characterized as closed mindedness.

 

I guess your right. I should sell my Stereo and head over to Best Buy and use the money for something else.