The Great USB cable debate poll

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by mindblanking, Feb 22, 2015.

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  1. gloomrider

    gloomrider Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA, USA
    I think this is what some are trying to highlight in this thread. While this sarcastic statement might attract some "likes" on the forum, it does absolutely nothing to advance your position.
     
    Micke Lindahl likes this.
  2. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    Don't get me wrong, I'd certainly like to assume you're 1000% correct, I'm just making a general statement about why I'd suppose folks object to ABX testing.
     
  3. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    I'm not an audio electronic engineer. I have compared dozens of amplifiers in my system over the past 30 years and that is all I have to go by. If you want to understand what makes a good amplifier you should spend some time with guys like Ken Stevens. He can spend 30 minutes just talking about the iron used in an amplifier.
     
  4. Doug G.

    Doug G. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, MN USA
    No, I didn't imply that. You inferred it. Obviously, if one amplifier has a greater capacity to output much higher current at low distortion levels than the other one, when you begin to push the envelope, the difference will become apparent.

    That is the difference. Not what brand or even architecture an amplifier is.
     
  5. gloomrider

    gloomrider Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA, USA
    The possible euphonic distortion (some lovingly call "coloration") of a tube amp might cause a different sound characteristic that is consistently identifiable.
     
  6. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    Yes, I was saying that the fine McIntosh equipment that Rolltide has in his system will definitely have an apparent difference to the Best Buy Receiver. I still guarantee he would notice the difference. Rolltide is obviously a discerning listener or he wouldn't have the equipment he has in his system.
     
    robertawillisjr likes this.
  7. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I agree with this. I also think people become not only Cable Hard Liners, but Defenders Of The Cable Faith.

    I think phono cables make a difference. I think non-phono analog cables might theoretically make a difference, but my experiences tell me enough for me to really mess with beyond the point of general competency. I don't think digital cables make a difference. So in other words, it's a mix and match for me. But I think the issue is some people take the mindset that if one cable makes a difference, all of them do. And then one day we all woke up in a world with $1000 ethernet cables.
     
  8. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    Hey, everybody leave Tullman alone - there's no need to split hairs over the specific analogy I made towards my absolutely badass 100lb rotator-cuff-ripping MC-352.
     
    Tullman likes this.
  9. Doug G.

    Doug G. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, MN USA
    But that can be measured.

    Doug
     
  10. Doug G.

    Doug G. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, MN USA
    OK but he was being mean to Best Buy.

    :D

    Doug
     
  11. DaveC113

    DaveC113 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Front Range CO
    It swings both ways, many folks who don't think it's possible for USB cables to make a difference defend their position with something more like faith than science. People take a bit of science, that is almost always either an extreme simplification of reality in the case of flat-earthers, or a dubious quasi-scientific statement for cable believers, and combine it with their beliefs to assert their chosen position. Neither extremes are reasonable and both camps cling to ego and their chosen faith.

    In this thread we've gone from people thinking that USB audio is error checked and corrected and the signal is a "digital"signal that is just 1s and 0s, to understanding that USB audio is very close to streamed in real time and errors are not corrected. And, a "digital" signal is really an analog signal who's square wave shaped changes in voltage represent 1s and 0s, but that the transmission of a perfect square wave at very high frequencies has all sorts of mechanism for error to be introduced. It's also been pointed out that a USB cable's 5V power leg is run parallel to the data leg inside of the same shield, and that the 5V power supply in most computers is very noisy. Further, it's been pointed out that a DAC is more or less susceptible to errors in USB transmission depending on the transfer protocol used by the DAC.
     
  12. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    It's also been pointed out that we're currently at 72% of people can't hear any audible differences between USB cables, and that this is ultimately the most important data point in this thread.
     
    CARPEYOLO likes this.
  13. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Not quite. We are at 72% who voted "no" to the question "Can upgraded USB cables at various price points improve the sound of your system"
     
    jfeldt likes this.
  14. Corey Louis

    Corey Louis Active Member

    a
    and how many of those people have systems that could hear a lot of cable differences period? I think thats what a lot of this comes down to
     
  15. CARPEYOLO

    CARPEYOLO Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I'd bet a lot of these people have good to great pairs of headphones though.
     
  16. Corey Louis

    Corey Louis Active Member

    I really hate the idea of headphones as a hifi playback method period, i doubt a playback method that literally jams sound into your ears without air or soundstaging can be different based on cabling
     
  17. rhubarb9999

    rhubarb9999 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    You certainly make it sound like USB is a horrible protocol that can't be trusted to move any kind of data reliably. But .. an expensive USB cable can make it reasonably acceptable for audio. Yet there are 100s of other uses for USB that don't seem to be susceptible to the pitfalls of this inferior format. Why does a 'cheap' cable work fine for hard drives, scanners, printers, HD video, digital cameras, and on and on. Every single one of these devices are moving exponentially more data than digital audio .. and they do it over the same cables that carry dirty 5v power right next to the data lines and have all sorts of interference attacking those poor perfect square waves.

    And I still don't understand how 'corrupted data' manifests itself suspiciously the same way as 'cheap' analog cables. In this very thread, someone said that a better USB cable reduced the 'unbearable' high end on his DAC (in much the same way a pricey interconnect or speaker cable can tame a system). Lucky for him that all the bits that were being lost/corrupted by that cheap cable were the ones that affected the high end.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
    Rolltide likes this.
  18. rhubarb9999

    rhubarb9999 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Ahhhh .. one of the two 'golden arguments' of audiophiles. You don't hear a difference because ...

    A. Your equipment sucks
    B. You don't know what to listen for (a nice way of saying you are too stupid to hear it)
     
    Rolltide likes this.
  19. CARPEYOLO

    CARPEYOLO Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    You may hate the idea, but headphones are used for playback in all kinds of professional applications.
     
    Tim 2 likes this.
  20. SBurke

    SBurke Nostalgia Junkie

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    It does help, so thank you. To your knowledge is there evidence that different cable materials or designs, among those used in available USB cables, are more or less likely to affect code recognition or timing?

    This is either good satire, or you are one of the most rigorous thinkers I've come across. Maybe a bit of both. :)

    In any event, personally, if we were to focus the discussion in one of these ways, I think I'd vote for #5; at least that's what I'm trying to get at with the question above.

    I think you're right that the discussion has come a long way. We know errors are possible (though most likely very rare) and we know some places where we might look if there were errors, or noise, or some other corrupting or complicating factor. At this point what I'm most interested in finding out is whether there is any quantifiable evidence, such as test results, demonstrating that among the various materials and designs used in available USB cables, some will yield greater accuracy in code or timing, or make it more or less likely that the signal will be affected by noise, and so on and so forth. The Computer Audiophile thread mentioned above is interesting because it begins with a discussion of some very specific claims, but by the end of the discussion it seems the claims made had been essentially withdrawn, because they could not be replicated. Is anyone aware of similar claims made in other cases, with or without validation?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
  21. Corey Louis

    Corey Louis Active Member

    yes, and they do very well there, live events they are quite literally essential, but i am talking about hearing the differences between cables in a hifi system (specifically usb), nothing else
     
  22. CARPEYOLO

    CARPEYOLO Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    You don't think people can hear the differences in USB cables with a very nice pair of headphones and a quality DAC?

    Can you give an example of what you think is necessary to notice the differences?
     
  23. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    If I state I have made a pill that can make my cat speak German, discussing if it´s a good a bad German and the possible ingredients in that pill is not the right discussion.
     
  24. Corey Louis

    Corey Louis Active Member

    maybe others can, i cant, its my personal opinion/experience and contribution to how headphones could play into the vote, im sure some goldenear guy out there has a headphone that will make the heavens open up and enlighten us all, i alas have not heard it
     
  25. Corey Louis

    Corey Louis Active Member

    seems like a bad german to me, and probably just adderall
     
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