Five things I hate about Origin Live tonearms

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by psulioninks, Mar 2, 2015.

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  1. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    This is being written from someone who has spent a couple of years now with an Origin Live Encounter arm on my Michell Gyrodec SE. The look and the sound of this arm are certainly not bad - just the opposite in fact. But it wasn't until I recently purchased a SME M2 9" arm that I realized several of the short-comings of the Origin Live design. For those thinking of acquiring an Origin Live arm, you might want to consider what I feel are their weak points compared to the SME design:

    5. Underside mounting

    Since the collar used to secure and adjust the arm angle of the OL Encounter to the armboard is mounted under the arm board (and the manufacturer suggests only finger tightening for best sound), it makes it almost impossible to keep the arm locked in place when returning it to the arm rest unless your willing to take tools to it. The SME M2 is mounted to the top of the arm board and has a separate locking collar to adjust the angle of the tonearm in relation to the platter. Once set and locked, it doesn't move.

    4. Anti-skating

    Most will tell you to adjust anti-skating by ear or with a test record. Unfortunately the Origin Live Encounter only has a smooth wire that requires one end of the anti-skating mechanism to be locked to it via an allen screw - no markings, just set it and try it (and yes, it is possible for the locking ball to slide off the back of the wire and fall to the ground). The SME M2 has a notched bar. Each notch corresponds to a VTF weight (see below). Once you set the VTF, you simply slide one end of the open loom over the correct VTF notch and you're done. Ingenious!

    3. Counter-weight (VTF)

    Many original Rega arms come with a threaded tail which the counter-weight screws onto and can be moved back and forth by twisting it one way or another. Origin Live has chosen to use an allen screw as a means to lock the counter-weight in place as the tail has no threads. I can't stress enough what a pain-in-the-ass it is to set the tracking force as the weight inevitably moves as you are locking it to the arm. The result? That precise weight that you achieved when using your nifty cartridge gauge is now gone. :( The SME M2 uses a threaded rod and the counter-weight is marked with a letter (A, B , C & D) every quarter turn. Each quarter turns creates 1/4 gram of tracking force. Once I had the arm at "zero" balance, I gave the counter-weight two full turns. It was almost exactly at my destination tracking force of 2 grams...it just required a bit of a nudge after that (probably because I was close to "zero", but not exactly at zero on the initial balance). Origin Live should have kept a threaded design.

    2. Cabling

    There are many that champion the one-piece cable Origin Live uses as it reduces the number of connection points and avoids RCA/DIN connections. However, if you ever have a solder point go bad...you're in real trouble. Consider a tonearm that accepts a separate cable connection at the base of the tonearm (like the SME M2). At least if you have a problem with that section, you can easily replace it without having to do a total re-wire (plus you can play around with cable upgrades as well). After using such a configuration, I've heard nothing to suggest that it is any worse than a soldered cable design from tip to end.

    1. Headshell azimuth

    I never considered how important being able to adjust this was until my SME M2 arrived. Mounting your cartridge to a headshell that is fixed in place like the Encounter is a fine concept if your cartridge has a perfectly aligned cantilever. However with the use of a small mirror on the platter under the SME headshell, I was able to assure that my AT33PTG/II was not offline when the stylus was presented to the groove. It took a few attempts, but I eventually got it perfect. :righton:

    If this seems like a plug for SME arms, I guess it sort of is. I've never owned one before here recently. But after having all of these features (on an entry-level arm no less), I will be hard pressed to do without them if/when considering future arm upgrades.

    All this would be worthless is the sound didn't follow the design. I've had the table up and running with the SME M2 for a week now, and I can honestly say that this arm has a magical way of extracting detail from the grooves while suppressing noise. I couldn't believe how quiet this thing runs in the grooves. Cue it down and it just sits so perfectly doing it's thing in a way that the Origin Live never did. The Origin Live always brought out quite a bit of surface noise along with the music. Some of this may be because the Origin Live couldn't be optimized due to its design limitations. I consider the SME M2 a bargain giving what it does, and I'm glad I decided to check out what another arm could do in my system.

    So there is my brief report. If you're in need of an arm, I now understand why SME uses the slogan, "the best pick-up arm in the world". They certainly have my vote.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
  2. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    I agree with a lot that you write about what you don't like about the Origin Live tonearm. I've used both Rega RB300 and Michells own TechnoArm on my GyroDec SE, I experienced the same problem as you with the underside mounting for both of these. Since almost 3 years I've a SME IV and I'll never look back again. My SME is a dream to use and handle- it's really an amazing tonearm so the slogan you mention is really true in many ways...
     
    psulioninks and utahusker like this.
  3. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Super informative post. I wish we had more even-handed reviews with positive and negative perceptions.
     
    raferx likes this.
  4. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Thanks for the reply. I only try to write about my own experience in the hope that my expenditure (for good or bad) will help someone else save some money by making the correct choice the first time. ;)
     
  5. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    I liked the retro look of the M2,and the price point made it a less risky experiment for me. But I have no doubt the IV is a killer pickup. Perhaps I will upgrade down the road and use the M2 I have now on a second spare table if I ever get around to buying one.

    Did you note how quiet the IV is while playing as well as I did the M2? It's amazing how super quiet it is in supressing surface noise without killing what it is extracting!
     
  6. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    I must say I've never had the tracking weight change when I've tightened down the set screw on a sliding counterweight (of course its already partially tightened when I test the tracking force so I'm just giving it a smidge extra torque for final tightening once I've confirmed the proper force). I've also never had a one piece tonearm cable develop a short.
     
  7. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    I have owned a Michel Gyrodec, and it is certainly an excellent sounding and operating turntable. It is fully capable of resolving differences in the sound of tonearms. Now that you have taken the time to describe the conveniences of installing and adjusting one arm compared to another, I am much more interested in your detailed comparison of the SOUND of these arms. If one arm sounds any different than the other, using an identical turntable and cartridge, it is THAT difference that would truly influence which arm I would buy. I can deal with some longer hours of fussing, if there is some sonic advantage to be enjoyed over the long term.
     
    Alf_1988 likes this.
  8. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    I spun some albums this weekend that I am pretty familiar with to get a better handle on the sound of the new arm vs. the old. The initial impression I had was that the Encounter was more extended at both frequency extremes. After further albums were listened to, I came to the conclusion that the Encounter was exaggerating the highs rather than being "extended" as I was getting the same type of playback resolution with the M2, but it just wasn't as "in your face" as the Encounter. I still feel that the Encounter digs slightly deeper into the bass, but I feel that while the bass is a tad deeper in sound, it is less defined in texture than the M2. The M2 seems to be a rather neutral arm - it doesn't seem to favor any one particular frequency range - though in reality it probably does on paper (just not to the ears).

    If I had to use two words to describe what I hear with each they would be:

    Encounter: forward and exaggerated
    M2: neutral and layered

    I'm having a lot of fun right now slapping familiar slabs of vinyl on the platter and hearing what the M2 unravels from those grooves - it's kind of like re-discovering your albums for the very first time. Perhaps some of this is due to the fact that set-up was more thoughtful with the new arm...or maybe my cartridge is just a better mate to it than the Encounter. I think I read (or heard from someone) that the SME arms were voiced when designed using this very table. One thing I've learned over the years is that components can sound quite different depending on the associated equipment they are used with. :)
     
    Alf_1988 likes this.
  9. The Good Guy

    The Good Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Interesting reading . Last year I bought a Martin Bastin AC power supply for my Gyrodec. That quietened down surface noise considerably . My arm is a Rega RB300 with Tecnoweight using 2M Blue cartridge . I love it . It plays MY RECORDS well & I don't have to play any Audiophile musak to satisfy myself how good it is.
     
  10. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    The M2 is a killer itself I think. The SME IV is indeed very nice and I also experienced what you described about the surface noise that almost disappeared completely when the IV entered in my vinyl rig. And I also recognise what you write about rediscovering the record collection all over, in many cases it is like listening to an already wellknown record for the first time.
     
  11. thommo

    thommo Senior Member

    Location:
    London, England
    I know John Michell always used SME arms on his own Gyros, Orbes etc. during development and for personal use
     
  12. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    I find the Origin Live arm so fiddly and unfriendly to set up, that it is unacceptable for my needs. I also need an arm which is easier to use, better thought out, and better engineered. SME I have always admired for that. My Audio-Technica ATP 16-T is delightful to set up and operate (and is well engineered and made). I like practical. Yet great sounding, and built for real world use.
     
  13. Colin M

    Colin M Forum Resident

    Err... is it me? I've not spotted the positive perception. :)
     
  14. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    They are associated with the letters S, M & E.
     
  15. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    SME tonearms really are matches made in heaven when combined with Michell GyroDec or Orbe.
     
    psulioninks likes this.
  16. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    I'm using the HR Power Supply along with ORBE platter upgrades. I've used this combo with both arms...still, much less surface noise coming from the SME arm.
     
    GyroSE likes this.
  17. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Yes, this may be the single most significant upgrade I've made to my system - ever.
     
    GyroSE likes this.
  18. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Agreed! Aside from maybe a cartridge change now and then or the interconnnects running from the base of the arm to my phono preamp, I think I am done with any mods to my vinyl rig for the foreseeable future. :righton:
     
    GyroSE likes this.
  19. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    I've a similar experience with my SME IV- it really made my vinyl rig sing. I also use the HR PSU but I haven't had the guts to make it a "Gorbe" yet, I don't want to change the good looks of the GyroDec that radically. The next step for me would be to go for the mighty Orbe...but I'm very happy with what the GyroDec can do. IMHO it's a really affordable turntable that has lots of potential built in.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  20. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    And I completely fogot to give praise and thanks to where it's due for this arm upgrade. Alfred at SME Tonearms was a complete joy to deal with. He answered several emails with mundane questions I had and always replied very promptly. In fact, I felt like I was buying one of SME's top-dollar arms instead of their entry-level offering. I ordered my arm on 2/19 and received it (from Canada!) on 2/23. :righton:

    Alfred really knows his stuff when it comes to SME products, and you can tell that he is quite passionate about this brand and our hobby in general. Add to this that he is the least expensive source I could find (yes, I looked)...and it was truly a great purchasing experience for me.

    If you're in the market for a new SME arm (or upgrades to an existing one), I can unequivocally recommend SME Tonearms as the dealer of choice.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  21. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    How would a tonearm suppress surface noise? Better tracking?

    I've not noticed that amongst my various unipivot and gimbal arms. It seemed like that was more a function of the cartridge, loading, phono stage and some vacuum hold down on the turntable.
     
  22. utahusker

    utahusker Senior Member

    I'm thinking the damping, but I'm no engineer.
     
  23. Malibu John

    Malibu John Forum Resident

    What carts are you guys using with the M2-9? I have tried mine with a Shure V15vXMR - a bad combination (I seem to recall a UK magazine reviewer came to the same conclusion) and a Dynavector DV10x5 - a good match. I have had it on both my Linn LP12 and SME10 turntables. I think its a good arm but I did encounter mild mistracking as the cart got near the record label on a couple of LP's.
     
  24. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Audio-Technica AT33PTG/II here...
     
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