How do you get that Pitch-Black Background when transferring vinyl to digital?

I don't know how some of you do it. I've heard some spectacular vinyl rips and there is little if any background noise. I get taking the sound levels down between tracks, but during a quiet passage of a song, it's like you can't even hear the needle in the vinyl. Even really clean vinyl still creates a bit of a noise floor.

I've messed with noise reduction and hiss removal, but I always feel I'm taking some music out with the process.


So, what am I not getting in this process or, how are you guys accomplishing this little secret. Share it. I'd love to know.

Thanks.

 

I do this periodically, and I believe there are several pieces that need to be in place. One is a good ADC. The best seem to be PC card-based. You also need a perfectly aligned cart and clean records. You probably need some third party specialized dither/downsample software. And finally, technique.

I'm not satisfied with mine (check the thread), but I am learning a little. My next test will be recording at lower levels (-12 db) and then normalizing to level. If you want silence between tracks, fade out the noise in the silent parts.

If I had a equally good digital source to my analog, I would have a better idea about it all.

 

Clean vinyl.

 

@jupiterboy - I've been looking at a PC based system, but coming from the MAC side, it's a bit overwhelming to decide which is the right way to go.

@Master_It_Right - Yes to clean vinyl, but even that leaves a noise trail. That's not really the cure-all but it helps.

 

Could get a digital recorder and then transfer. I've not done that, but others get good results that way.

 

Clean vinyl, proper setup, luck...

Also suggest the Denon DL-110 cart, does a better than most job of minimizing noise

 

I'm currently using a Korg digital recorder, and getting good results, but damn, some of these transfers others have created blow me away. My set-up is well above average but I just seem to pick up more background than I care for. Perhaps my standards are a bit high. I just thought perhaps someone would share their techniques. I guess it's like a mastering engineer. Why would he share his trade secrets.

 

At what volume level? Between tracks/during quiet passages at typical listening levels on loudspeakers? Or with headphones with the volume turned up a fair bit? Just trying to get a frame of reference.

 

I have no doubt that a high-quality cartridge and proper alignment are of course important, but lots of rippers use good carts and I assume lots of rippers are very good at setting up and aligning their equipment. The very best rippers seem to have super-serious cleaning regimens: ultrasonic cleaners, revirginizer, multi-step cleaning processes, and so on. I think that's the key: super-clean vinyl.

 

we have the same preamp. post some samples

 

What kind of turntable/tonearm?

Here's a pro tip -- the most noise-free vinyl setups have really excellent isolation. My listening room has a slab floor, and that makes a huge difference.

 

It helps to have records that are undamaged and initially manufactured with enough quality to play with minimal surface noise.

Cleaning the vinyl surfaces well can help immensely. I use Audio Intelligent fluids and a VPI record vacuum machine.

Different turntables and cartridges can yield tremendously varied results. In a hifi store I recently heard a Linn LP12 with most of the top options, and the playback was astonishing. Surface noise was practically eliminated--they let me play some of my own records, and copies that were somewhat noisy on my own setup (a mid-grade LP12) had essentially silent backgrounds on the store's rig. The music to noise ratio was highly optimized.

 

Timusic,

What cartridge was being used? What were some of the tweaks you felt contributed to the excellent playback?

Thanks,
Justin

 

Nice condition records to start with. Look at the vinyl under a bright halogen lamp, and now you will see the paper lint, smudges and dust / dirt. So a good wash under water of your choice.

A good turntable with rubber mat. I think rubber deadens the sound more than felt, just my thinking.

Used a good cartridge and newish stylus. Make sure speed is correct and strobe looks locked in and steady.

Make sure speakers are turned very low, or away from the TT. You don't want any feedback from speakers at all. Some folks remove the dust cover from the TT as they feel that it attracts vibrations.

And I record at a good level rather then raising levels later. Raising levels later is not what good signal to noise ratio is about, but rather push the noise floor lower during the recording.

Just some tips.

Needle dropping has been great for me. I've ripped most all of my old drops to my music server now. I'm impressed that even my early ones are done rather well -- good string levels, nice vinyl pressings, and newish stylus used.

Oh, and ClickRepair is your friend. Set at 12 to 15 range is pretty great.

 

A bit of everything. Most of my listening Is CD player in my suburban. I stick with vinyl when it comes to listening to music in my "studio". It's a nice system really.

I clean the S*H* out of the vinyl I collect and typically get near mint vinyl. I have a pretty extensive set-up that includes ultrasonic, steam etc. My set-up is near what some of the well known rippers have. I'm also breaking in an Audio Technica AT33 Cart. Good stuff and great detail from this cart, but - I just find that some guys get great detail and a black background in their rips. I'm aware that source material is 90% of the process, and I've spent more than I really wanted to on getting the right LP. But when I compare my rips to their's, well... But, the great thing is, there's always something new to try. Thanks for the response.

 

Pitch black background has never been my goal really.

But I recently did the Buck Owens Show - Live in Japan EMI/Capitol 2-LP set. I'd been on the lookout for several years for a minty copy of this one that was not too expensive. It was issued in Japan only, and no CD has ever appeared. And it's the last live recording to feature Don Rich. So it's a very important album for me to have in the collection.

Anyway I got a very quiet background on this drop. Silky smooth, but it is a live album with audience in between most tracks.

 

The cartridge was a Linn Kandid.
http://www.linn.co.uk/all-products/turntables/kandid

The turntable had a Radikal power supply, which reduces surface noise a lot. "Inky black background" is sincerely not an exaggeration, but the gear is not inexpensive.

Also, the turntable was set up by Tom O'Keefe, a world-class specialist who performs optimal adjustments on these allegedly finicky machines (mine always works great, by the way).

 

I've been getting extremely black backgrounds for a while now. Your AT33PTG/II is definitely capable of that. Looks like everything else you've got is nice too. I've found that with my AT160ML, if I've never played a particular LP before, it takes a couple of plays even after a good cleaning for the groove noise to completely recede. Having the azimuth really dialed in has helped a lot. After going back and forth with different methods of adjusting azimuth, I've found that making sure the stylus sits perfectly even in the groove sounds best. Fortunately, channel balance and crosstalk just happen to be pretty darn good when the stylus is oriented like that. That was just a happy coincidence.

Now, there are some guys who use a judicious amount of digital NR on their needledrops and have years of practice fine-tuning that process. So don't let 'em fool you.

 

?
I have been shopping for another A/d usb converter. I have the Pro-Ject a/d phono box but may try the
Nad PP4, or the cheapest one recommended in The Absolute Sound HRT Linestreamer. They also mention more expensive units from PS Audio, Ayre, Channel D, M2Tech, and more.

So far I have not found one recommended that was PC only not Mac.

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/analog-digital-converter-files-identified-converters-profiled;
"...
Most of the samples here were recorded using Vinyl Studio primarily because it’s more convenient to use than Pure Vinyl when recording short excerpts.."
Their favorite seems to be Vinyl Nirvana.

 

Surface noise is a tough one, as some have stated there is software that will help clean it up, I think by nature/pressing some vinyl is noisier than others, I, like Jupiterboy have tried, but I do my listening on my big system and it seems to "hide it" somewhat more than on headphones so I don't bother
Clearly you can hear it on this sample during a quiet intro-
Erasure-How Many Times
https://www.dropbox.com/s/12x9vmyreykrw02/How many samp.wav?dl=0

 

I'm glad you brought this up. I've been using NR for years on my drops. I know it's got a bad rep here but when used carefully and to target the right kind of noise, it can be effective in achieving those black backgrounds. In fact I recall a few years ago a guy sending me a private message advising me that a certain famous needledropper actually uses noise reduction on his drops, as if it were some sort of unholy catastrophe!

Obviously it's always good to get the source as clean as you can and the playback gear as dialed in as possible, but that still doesn't ensure a noiseless background, even on clean, undamaged vinyl. There are lots of factors contributing noise, so sometimes noise reduction can help. For example, I have one of those nasty Pro-Ject motors on my turntable. Even after replacing the motor and trying every tweak possible, there's still significant motor noise, especially at 45rpm. I recently posted a sample in the needledrop thread that shows what NR can do. This is the end of the Fleetwood Mac song Oh Daddy and going into Gold Dust Woman first without NR and then with, both of them from the Hoffman/Gray Rumours.

https://db.tt/sSKidiTv (24/88.2kHz FLAC)

One trick I've found for applying such NR is to convert the file to Mid/Side mode and then determine which resulting channel has the noise. For typical vinyl noises, it's usually in the Side channel, so I apply noise reduction only to the lower frequencies in that channel. This leaves the centered bass that's usually in the Mid channel completely untouched. Likewise, the motor noise in my sample is mostly in the Mid channel, so I apply narrowly focused NR to that channel only. I actually "learned" the noise by taking a sample then deleting everything above and below the noise frequency of 120Hz from the selection I "learned". Obviously the software used is going to affect the result. I use iZotope's RX4 Advanced, but even the tools that come with Adobe Audition, Sound Forge or even Cockos Reaper can work.

In the end, it's really up to each individual user what he or she wants. Some folks get all puritan and say we should just shut up and enjoy the sound of vinyl with all the noise. Others like to remove it. I'm one of those who wants as much as possible to remove any noise that wasn't heard in the studio at the time of recording.

To each his or her own, YMMV and all that.

 

One other thing - if the source is mono, make sure you combine the channels. I usually needledrop in stereo, then let ClickRepair de-click and combine the channels. I have got some great results with that method on some pretty noisy Lp's.

And as quicksrt said, low settings using ClickRepair work great.

 

I'm not a purist but I don't want to take away detail from the transfer. I find that NR can be harmful even in small amounts. You describe converting a file to Mid/Side Mode. First i've ever heard of this. Can you explain? I'd like to explore this option.

I am using Izotpe RX3 as well as Adobe Audition for editing files. I'm not aware this option exists with either of these programs.

 

Free VST mid/side converter:
https://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/

Audition supports VST addins and I think RX3 also does.

 

Mid/Side mode converts a stereo file to all the centered stereo info in the left channel and all the non-centered info in the right channel. It's more complex than this and beyond the scope of a quick explanation here but if you Google around a bit, it will give you more information. Suffice it to say that once you have the audio information presented this way, it's possible to isolate a lot of vinyl groove noise into the S channel where you can treat it without affecting the info in the M channel, and vice versa. I'm not home right now but when I am I'd be happy to post the settings I use in both RX and Audition for toggling back and forth between L/R and M/S modes. Alternatively you can use a converter such as MSED, which Apesbrain just suggested.

As for detail, careful use of NR doesn't have to take it away. In fact, using NR can uncover details that are masked. The key is what to use and when. For example, a lot of folks use NR to try and remove hiss, which is extremely difficult to do without losing some details and a sense of realism (careful EQ can be much more effective for hiss reducion, and then a little bit of EQ reduction goes a long way). However, it can be really effective and much less destructive on the frequencies below say 500-600Hz or so. Plus, the NR in RX for example can be configured to only affect the material when the noise would otherwise be noticeable. For example, the motor noise removal I mentioned above only occurs when the noise is evident. Once the music gets loud enough to mask it, nothing is removed since it's not necessary.

It's more about practice than anything else. Unless you're earning your living at this and under time constraints, just enjoy yourself. I find restoring audio and removing noise that wasn't there in the studio to be a very rewarding hobby that doesn't have to compromise the sound quality at all. In fact it enhances it and my enjoyment of the music tremendously[/QUOTE]