Bi-Wiring....

What I hear when bi-wiring is a slight but important improvement in spatial presentation, more resolving bass and a cleaner less clutter sound.
I've repeatedly gone from single to bi on my main system to insure what I was hearing wasn't simply an artifact of my invention.

 

So the measurable parameters of a solid 16 AWG cable and a 16 AWG multi-strand cable are negligible? It would seem that differences in capacitance would be distinct enough to open the door to the idea that, given the crossover circuits are discreet, to claim a difference.

We have a quote from Richard Vandersteen in this thread stating the same idea.

The point being, the signal in each wire is the same, coming from the same amplifier tap. However, the resistance in the curcuit is slightly more than a single wire with jumpers, and, if other aspects of the cable differ, we open the door to other changes as well, essentially causing the crossover to function differently than the designer intended.

 

Years ago my Linn Sara monitors really shined with a bi-wiring, just as the dealer recommended. My current speakers are monitors on top of bass units and must be bi-wired. Most of the before and afters I have witnessed show a modest level of improvement worth the cabling. It seems to open up the performance and sound a bit less congested.

 

Here in Sweden bi-wiring is quite rare, maybe it has to with that ads are only allowed to have verifiable data.

 

You are joking, correct?

 

Sorry, I think I had a moment of wishful thinking.

 

I confess, I skimmed the article, I did not "study" it; I did seek out his conclusions at each stage of his process (examination/comparison/contrasts) and his final wrap up

That's a great deal of material to essentially say that yes, the insertion of the extra cable bits and extra solder MIGHT make some sort of "difference" but it's really hard to tell

I'll stick with conventional methods when dealing with the signals in my system; the more simple and fewer connections, the better

 

"Never mind the width woman, feel the....."

I hear you, I hear you.

 

I recently purchased a pair of Wharfedale 10.2 bookshelf speakers. I was not familiar with bi-wiring. Right now I am simply using standard wiring with jump plates that were provided. I havent been just blown away by these speakers as the reviews built them up to be. This is probably due to the facts: 1) I am use to horns . 2) These are, after all, bookself speakers 3) They have a very laid back sound to them. British, if you will. Polite. Seem to to everything above average but nothing outstanding.

The three points aside, Im going to get a buddy of mine to do a bit of blindtesting with me. He will set the speakers up either bi-wired or standard wiring without me knowing which he has done. Im looking to see if perhaps the bi-wiring *might* make a difference of some degree.

On a side note:

More, importantly, Im looking into a more compatible amp also. Maybe a Jolida or Prima-Luna.

 

Please report back after the blind listening test.

I prefer speakers designed for bi-wire to be bi-wired. At least get rid of the jump plates and put some decent copper wire there.

 

Ill get some good wiring.

 

I don't know about all the science or ridiculous arguments. What do know is my buddy and I bi-wired his speakers and neither of us could hear a difference. Then we tr-wired mine and both of us could tell a significant difference.

I don't care what anyone tries to say. We both could hear an obvious difference. To me that means sometimes it mattered sometimes it doesn't. Since then I've tried it a few more times and it still makes a difference.

 

I've always wondered about this! A number of years ago I bought some PMC OB1 speakers and read what PMC had to say on the matter. Having read this I decided not to bother!!

"All passive PMC speakers can be either bi-wired or tri-wired. Bi-wiring is the use of two runs of speaker cable per channel between the amplifier and speaker. Tri-wiring is similarly the use of three runs of speaker cable per channel, but you will require a three way loudspeaker and three rear pairs of terminals per speaker to achieve this. Some people advocate that separating the signal paths aids the retrieval of fine detail. However, the evidence is far from conclusive. If you intend to bi-wire your two way speakers, or tri-wire your three way speakers ensure the metal links on the back-panel have been removed. If you wish to bi-wire our three way speakers, so the tweeters and mids are served by one set of cables and the woofers by a separate set of cables, remove the bottom link, but retain the top one."

 

According to a direct electrical measurement on speakers cables up to 40' in length, the difference is less than 0.004 dB or less. At least I think so, because the difference was down into the noise of the test gear itself. The differential threshold of human hearing is 1dB. There is no supportable claim for any audible difference.

I think you've got it reversed. Bi-wiring essentially increases the gauge of wire between the amp and the speakers by doubling the run. Resistance is lower therefore, but in every situation I've ever measured the difference is somewhere around 0.01dB (up to 20' runs and compared to single wiring) which is, like the measurement above, completely inaudible and basically irrelevant.

Don't waste money on bi-wiring. Even bi-amping is questionable with speakers meant for home audio applications because the internal, passive crossovers are still in place. The most effective and usefully controllable bi-amping uses external crossovers.

 

I bi-wire because I can

 

So we can be comfortable in this if we contstrain what we define as measurable differences to voltage loss as a result of resistance. And, maybe a key point of my comment was the word discreet. Maybe I misuse this term, but my intent is to distinguish between a crossover that might not otherwise ever link the signal coming in from the two sets of binding posts.

So, in the case of a simple cap and coil crossover—a single cap on the tweeter and a single inductor limiting the mid/bass driver and no electrical connection between the two elements of the crossover except the connection at the amp's binding post—two separate runs of of speaker wire with a combined AWG of 11 would have less resistance than a single run of 11 AWG wire with jumpers? It would seem that you would need to install the jumpers in addition to the bi-wired speaker cables to equalize the resistance.

The last assumption, that one would spend more bi-wiring, is also not necessarily true, though in most cases it probably is true.

 

I'd rephrase that last sentence to read that the most effective and usefully controllable bi-amping uses active crossovers. There are many biamped mini-monitors that are used for home/studio recording that have hi-fi crossover, from Genelec and others. In the PA realm there are the ubiquitous JBL EON - type speakers from many manufacturers that have active internal crossovers.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. A signal sent from an amp is a streaming, complicated waveform. There's nothing discreet about it. Single wire or bi-wire, no part of the signal is parsed for individual speaker drivers until the signal reaches the crossover. As for differential measurements between single and bi-wire, the tiny, fractional difference is absurdly irrelevant.

No and no. The reason is that your cable gauge example doesn't accurately represent what cable makers do. Rather, cable makers usually double the amount of wire in a bi-wire configuration.

It is. To get even the tiny measurable electrical difference noted earlier at these gauges, voltages and distances you have to double the gauge. Cable makers sell you twice as much wire that you don't need. Many of the few people who hear an obvious dfference when going to bi-wiring were using 18 gauge (or smaller) speaker wire, or alternatively, cleaned off badly oxidized connections (or tightened loose connections) in the process of changing cables.

 

Right you are. Active crossovers are the key.

 

Yes, it's the common misperception that the two runs of wire somehow contain differing signals. What I was getting at is that I have read that some crossovers take the incoming signal and simply add an additional set of connectors for cosmetic/marketing reasons that feed into the same circuit, which is essentially the same as having a permanent set of jumpers inside the speaker. I've not seen this, but assume it does happen, and sometimes wonder if assumptions about crossovers in general could gloss over nuances.

FWIW, I find this to be one of the better rundowns on the cable debate.

::Welcome:: »

 

I've only seen one set of dual posts that didn't actually accommodate bi-amping. It was a pair of cheap floorstanders, with both pairs of binding posts connected to the same terminals on the crossover. I'm told that a number of good speakers makers resisted the trend for years, but eventually caved in to the demand from a subset of customers. Harbeth and a number of other top-shelf makers still use a single pair of posts. As noted earlier in the thread (thanks another member who corrected my post), without an active crossover in the signal path, bi-amping a speaker that offers only its passive internal crossover isn't much if an improvement.

Then there are speaker makers like Totem, that provide addressable passive crossovers (e.g., in the Hawk floorstanders) that tilt down, neutral and up depending on whether someone uses the lower posts, diagonally opposite posts, or the upper posts. For anybody who has the Hawk or Forest models from Totem, the FAQ about this is on the Totem site. Not sure if the smaller Arrow or Staff models have the feature.

Anyway, any speaker wire that has low to moderate impedance and low capacitance will do as pefectly as any multi-thousand dollar so-called audiophile speaker cables. Mind you, the impedance shouldn't be vanishingly low because we don't want to put an amp into oscillation! I heard the result of 6 gauge ultra low impedance connection once and it wasn't pretty. Foolishness. Bigger is not necessarily better.

Once we get to 12 gauge wire with abrasion resistant insulation and connectors that make good electrical contact, there's nothing left to spend money on except deeply drilled subconscious influences that are relentlessly promoted and hard to overcome.

 

I hear you, and thanks for taking the time to respond. I am currently using an inexpensive, higher capacitance speaker wire with a very, very low reactive impedance. I've not had any oscillation issues. I do think that the above linked Pass Labs discussion and measurement of speaker wire is about as coherent as I've found anywhere.

 

That's kind of a given. Still, as someone who does hear differences and has preferences, I'm always interested in why I do. Always nice when a respected amp designer goes to the lengths to test some basic designs and offer measurements and scenarios where design parameters should be a consideration. Also, glad I can get something that works for me and costs about the same as a reasonable bulk cable.