SUT and Tube Amps?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by adamdube, Mar 30, 2015.

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  1. adamdube

    adamdube Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Elyria, OH USA
    So I have a quandary of sorts. Trying to figure out where to spend my $$.

    I have a Fisher X-100-3 tube integrated amp. Nicely done, just fixed up. Fresh NOS RCA input and output tubes. The Turntable is a Thorens TD-166 MKII with a cardas wired RB 250.

    Currently running an Audio Technica AT-09C (1st edition) LOMC Cart. It's plugged into a Audio Alchemy VAC-In-The-Box pre amp, at 50DB gain and then into an aux input on the Fisher. I think it sounds pretty dang good, especially for a work rig.

    My option is to buy a SUT or to buy a nice MM cart if I want to hear this phono stage in the Fisher. Or continue to use the Vac In The Box and move up the MC ladder to something else.

    So I guess, is a SUT into a MM stage on a Tube amp a good or bad idea? Do they provide options for loading that MC carts need?

    I was also thinking of buying a 8MZ stylus for the Grado ZF1 I have sitting around. I hear they pick up hummmm from anything, the table sites right next to the Fisher....asking for trouble with these transformers right next to it with the Grado?
     
  2. The Good Guy

    The Good Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    SUT does that mean STEP UP TRANSFORMER???
     
  3. subframe

    subframe Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bay Area
    In the context of this post, of course it does.
     
    Rolltide likes this.
  4. The Good Guy

    The Good Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Sorry But IDNK . IDNK means I did not know.
     
    Analogman likes this.
  5. adamdube

    adamdube Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Elyria, OH USA
    I figured sut was a pretty common term here.. Sorry guys
     
  6. tubbyslion

    tubbyslion Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York, USA
    Jim Hagerman's Piccollo2 is also an option. It's a JFET circuit based head amp, so not passive. Loading options, though.

    According to Arthur Salvatore, the ZYX CCP-1 is about the best non-SUT he has ever heard. Hard to come by though.

    There is also the Slee Elevator, which gives a lot of loading options.
     
  7. Analogman

    Analogman Well-Known Member

    Stick with that approach; that's how I use my "500"
    You can always play around with outboard MC PHONO stages
    The "AUX" input on your Fisher is the cleanest (most direct)
    I'd reserve the Fisher's PHONO input for other carts (moving magnet and moving iron); it's very good but does a have a little noise on it compared to all Solid State designs

    Right now you've got the best of both worlds, especially if you like the sound
     
  8. Paul K

    Paul K Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I am running the AT33PTG/ll into the Parks Avenue Budgie SUT into an MX110 and listening right now - it is perfect!
     
  9. Analogman

    Analogman Well-Known Member

    I concur
     
  10. adamdube

    adamdube Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Elyria, OH USA
    Maybe that's the best plan, keep the external phono and go from there. I just wish the damn connectors on the X-100 weren't so close.....it's nearly impossible to use the tuner and aux inputs....must have had real thin RCA plugs back then. I also have a Schiit Bifrost running into this Fisher x-100
     
  11. adamdube

    adamdube Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Elyria, OH USA
    500?? Nice - sending a 400 into a tech soon for a rebuild/refresh....gonna be really nice I hope!
     
  12. Analogman

    Analogman Well-Known Member

    Buy yourself a nice run of Mogami cable, a bag of REAN connectors (RCAs) and the fitment problem will be solved:

    http://www.mogamicable.com/pdf/Mogami_Tech_cat2014.pdf
    http://www.redco.com/Rean-Neutrik-NYS373-Male-RCA-Plug.html

    As a bonus, you'll have interconnects of studio/professional quality for well less than $100 bucks that will fit Vintage jack panels

    I recommend Redco Audio for service, price and having everything in stock
     
  13. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    I'm running a Denon DL-103 into an Auditorium 23 SUT into an Audio Note M1 RIAA into an Audio Note Oto Line SE. AN UK Lexus cables.
    To my ears, having used a very highly-rated Sutherland MM/MC phono pre, going to the SUT/MM phono combo was a huge step up in performance. I'd definitely recommend going with a SUT. Only question is which one.
     
    Sailfree likes this.
  14. adamdube

    adamdube Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Elyria, OH USA
    Are there universal ones? I see a lot of the Denons but they seem tailored to their carts. I am not married to the AT-09C, it's just what I have now. So not looking for something for that per se as I am something that I can use with variety of carts. Recommendation?
     
  15. smctigue

    smctigue Forum Resident

    A 1:15 should be about right for a 20 Ohm cartridge like yours. That would present a load of 208 Ohms to your cartridge provided your Fisher has a 47K Ohm input.
     
  16. adamdube

    adamdube Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Elyria, OH USA
    So this 20 ohms you refer to for my cart, from the specs I only see 20 Ohm on the Transformer's load resistance....is this the spec I should pay attention to when looking at other MC carts and when reading about SUT compatibility?

    .4mV output
    coil impedance - 12Ohm
    DC resistance - 12Ohm
    Load resistance headamp >100 Ohm
    Load resistance transformer: >20 Ohm

    I don't see 20 Ohm anywhere else in the spec sheet I have.
     
  17. I, like many others, have been very happy with the Denon moving coil carts--especially for the money. I'm using a modified Denon 103R with a SUT that utilizes Cinemag 1254 transformers. (Note: I learned that the 103 source impedance = 40 ohms and the 103R = 14 ohms, so be mindful of potential differences even with similar carts) The marriage of the cartridge to the "right" SUT can create some real magic! Many cartridge/SUT combinations will "work fine" together, however some combinations have excellent synergy and really shine.
     
  18. smctigue

    smctigue Forum Resident

    My mistake - 12 is the number you should look at. What are you loading the cartridge at now?
     
  19. adamdube

    adamdube Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Elyria, OH USA
    100 Ohm as recommended. Sounds pretty solid to me
     
  20. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    With step up transformers, the primary matching issue is the amount of gain needed, which then determines the turn ratio that is required to get that amount of gain. Loading of the phonostage that is fed by the transformer is not that critical. With both of my cartridges (Lyra Titan and Transfiguration Orpheus L), no additional loading is needed. This is the rough conclusion of the interesting whitepaper on the subject that can be found here:

    http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformers_explai.html

    I tend to agree with Art Dudley of Stereophile who has basically said that he has yet to find a transformer he does not like, even when it is supposedly not ideal. There is a lot of leeway when matching transformers and cartridges. You really don't want one with too high a turn ratio and gain such that it overloads the phonostage, or one with not enough gain, but, other than that, I would not worry too much about loading or whether the source impedance of the cartridge is matched to a particular transformer (some companies, like Audionote insist that matching the cartridge impendance to the particular transformer is critical, but, I have used their transformers with terrific results without regards to such matching; perhaps I was lucky).

    I like Audionote transformers and various phonostages that have Jensen step up transformers in them (homemade units, Zanden phonostages). I have not seriously listened to Auditorium or Cinemag transformers, but they have very good reputations. The Cinemag transformers are also found in Bob's Devices transformers.
     
  21. smctigue

    smctigue Forum Resident

    OK, 1:20 will put you around 117 BUT you'll be generating an 8mV (.4mV * 20) signal which some will say is too high.

    Bob's Devices could probably make you a 1:10 with resistor loading to get you down to 100 Ohms.
     
  22. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Do you mean the Audio Technica AT-OC9? So, it is 12 Ohms internal impedance?
    Also, from what I've read, some would say to stay away from any resistive loading with transformers.
     
  23. smctigue

    smctigue Forum Resident

    I recently read (who knows if it's true) that your A23 is loading down to 100 Ohm via a resistor. If I can find the thread I'll post the link.

    EDIT: Link - http://theartofsound.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-29655.html
     
  24. adamdube

    adamdube Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Elyria, OH USA
  25. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    I can tell you it is not.
    FWIW...
    My understanding is that after having a lot of his hard work ripped off, Keith prefers A23 owners don't talk about their SUTs.
    I have yet to see a definitive answer on what any A23 SUT loads a cart at.
    Also why all the A23 trannies are now sealed. (The Hommage T2 SUT cannot even be opened. Period. Unless you smash it apart.)
    It's also my understanding ( I could be wrong) from conversations with people familiar with A23 thinking, that resistive loading is not in line with Keith's SUT philosophy.
     
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