David Crosby's Triad: Is it sexist?

Give Crosby a break. He was a rock star and needed one woman to have sex with while the other woman was making breakfast, then brunch, then lunch, then tea time, then a snack before dinner, then dinner, then a light late evening dinner, then a snack before bedtime. One woman is not enough for sex and food preparation. This is the meaning of the song. Crosby was a man of prodigious appetites and one woman was not enough to satiate his manly desires. Maybe one woman is enough for losers, but David Crosby is no loser.

 

Not really seeing that-- The two people he's addressing both have long hair, and they're both innocent compared to the singer-- That's really all we got. It makes just as much sense when Grace Slick sings it, where you think at least one of the characters is male..

 

I don't know about that. I would say the loss of Gene Clark was a bigger blow than the firing of Crosby. He pushed hard for his "Lady Friend" to be a single, which tanked. Some of his songs are indeed Byrds classics, but they were deep album tracks, not the ones that brought the teenyboppers into the store to buy the hits. Even in CSN, his songwriting was less commercial than the other guys'. There is no doubt that the Byrds were a lesser entity when Crosby left (as they were when Clark left) but that is mainly for his harmony vocal skills.

 

It's funny, though I deeply admire Gene Clark's songwriting ability, I tend to prefer the albums after he left overall. His departure forced the others to step up their game and develop as writers to fill the void: 5D, Younger Than Yesterday and Notorious are all outstanding. Though a part of me wishes that they had been able to keep Gene in the ranks, I think that it was better all around for him to go his own way (We also got his great solo stuff and Dillard & Clark). I agree that Crosby never really delivered much in the way of big mainstream hits, but I've always felt like he came up with some of the most distinctive, creative material, both for the Byrds and CSN.

 

Well, aside from the overall tone, the lines about "your long hair flowing, your eyes alive, your minds are still growing...", or "you are afraid, embarrassed too, no one has ever said such a thing to you, your mother's ghost stands at your shoulder..." - that sounds like a guy addressing a gal he sees as a lovely ingenue he's trying to loosen up, not some other longhair. YMMV of course, but I think the only way one can get the idea that the song is gender-neutral from the lyrics alone is if they're coming from an ESL position, as the fellow who brought this up acknowledged might be the case.

I'll admit to not having heard the Airplane version, but I imagine that it sounds a bit odd.

 

LOL. Exactly. Of all the sexist songs in the 60s this is the one that gets singled out?

Why are women getting pigeon holed as Meter Maids by Paul McCartney? And did you ever notice he says Sir before Madam in Paperback Writer?

 

I'm totally playing like when Grace sings it both of those she's singing it to are female. Then I'm imagining the video. Then I'm excusing myself for a few minutes.

 

It could just as easily be an older guy addressing a younger, more naive, less experienced guy. Gay or bisexual guys are just as quick to try to seduce someone younger and less experienced as straight guys are. It's a guy thing in general, regardless of sexuality. The lyrics suggest the protagonist is more worldly and possibly older, but say nothing about gender (aside from specifying the third person is female). As noted, Grace did not have to change the lyrics yet most people presume she is addressing a man when she sings it. Again, I'm not saying Crosby intended it to be taken that way, just that there is nothing in the lyrics themselves that precludes that interpretation.

 

Sure, but not in this flowery sort of language with allusions to flowing hair, wide eyes, ghost mothers, and love love love. Even a gay hippie I suspect would take a more direct approach that is often alluded to in, say, Morrissey songs - ie, the older guy saying "hey, you're inexperienced, maybe reticent, but don't worry - let me show ya what's what."

 

It's about a dude and two chicks.

Crosby was a horn dog, and who wouldn't be in his situation.

You really seem like you want it to be about gay guys.

 

I agree with you Dudley. I don't hear any ambiguity at all in the lyrics. It's a proposition to two women that they share a relationship.

 

According to Nash's book, Crosby, Hinton & Donovan were a functioning, living-together triad at the time Christine was killed in a car wreck. The song, however, may have been written earlier. Nash depicts Crosby as very fond of sex with a pair of female partners, but usually in more casual situations.

 

Well, there we go.

 

Alas, Grace sang "Me and HIM, or you and me."

 

Crosby was the original Charlie Sheen.

 

Yep, I sure do. That's why I've said repeatedly that I don't think Crosby intended it that way, and that I myself think it's about a guy trying to seduce two women. You remind me of a character in the Captain Underpants books my daughter reads named Mrs. DePoint.

 

The song is a good fit for Grace's straightforward personality. Maybe she wasn't personally into such relationships, but it's easy to believe that if she had been, she wouldn't have given a damn what anybody thought.

 

Christine Hinton died in 1969, so the song definitely predates that period (which makes sense, since Crosby is proposing the triad in the song, not singing about it being in existence). Debbie Donovan wound up having Crosby's child (Donovan Crosby).

Hinton and Donovan were already friends and the heads of the Byrds fan club when they met Crosby. Crosby is singing about his early relationship with one of them (Christine I'm guessing) in "Carry Me" ("I once loved a girl, she was younger than me.") Nash's song "Wounded Bird" is about Crosby's reaction to Christine's death ("I've watched you go through changes that no man should face alone") and Crosby's song "Somehow She Knew" is about finally facing Christine's death decades after the fact.

 

This.

 

The Byrds version was recorded 8/67 and the Jefferson Airplane 5/68. I first heard the song on 'Crown of Creation' (released 9/68, when I was 16.) Being a science fiction fan, I had read 'Stranger in a Strange Land', so I was ready for the concept.

 

I don't really see it as sexist. It's just a proposition among three adults. All three are sexual beings and they are free to say yes or no. I don't see how it stereotypes or victimizes women.

Maybe it was shocking at the time, but the song seems like a quaint anachronism now.

 

Do I think Triad is sexist? No, not really. Do I think the song is greasy/sleazy? Yes!

In Crosby's defense, Lady Friend is a damn good song and shoulda/coulda been a hit. For as must I dislike Triad, I love Lady Friend.

 

If David Crosby wrote Triad these days, it's be about trying to entice a bag of pies to get in bed with him and a plate of jam sandwiches

 

if the girl wanted to bring another guy in I guess it would be alright as long as he knew there would be no crossing swords

 

I just wonder if "The Day Walk" and this were left unfinished in the can for possible use on the next album because the sound just wouldn't have fit on "Turn! Turn! Turn!"..... and then Gene left hence "Day Walk" being left unfinished and the overall sound had moved on from the sound of "Stranger....." which, to me seems like a step beyond the "Turn!...." sound but not quite at the "Fifth Dimension" harder sound, unlike "The Day Walk", which would have fit very well on the latter album. Love your idea of a single though.

Oh and for the record, I don't see the Crosby song in question as being sexist at all, merely questioning the received "wisdom" concerning loving relationships. Love the chord sequence, melody and yes the lyrical content, loving two people that both love you, I can't find it within myself to condemn that idea. Heartily agree in fact, and I don't mean "threesome".