New DD turntable from Onkyo

I was at Grimey's last RSD and the nice lady in front of me in line had one of those Peanuts Crosley tables which I thought was cool. Since most Corsley's that I have seen have built in amplification, they have never suited my needs. I, myself, have a RP8, P5, and Concept MC.

 

Great place, Grimey's.

Do you have to put a tire with nail holes in the tread on the rim and mount it on your car before you can say it's not as good a tire as one that's completely in tact? We laugh because that's illogical; however, it's this lack of logic that Hanpin diehards are expecting those of us who own better turntables to swallow. Not gonna do it. Now, they can say, "We patched the tire in places. We plugged the tire in places. It'll getcha down the road just as well as a new tire." and "By the way, this patched up and plugged tire costs as much or more than a new tire." No, illogical. I am not going to buy a Hanpin, Onkyo or Pioneer, to put on top of my rack next to a Technics, a Thorens or hopefully in the next year, a Trans-Fi Audio, just to prove to myself I wasted my money and subsequently return it, anyway. I've seen them (inside and out). I have heard them. I have touched them. Not better. Not on par. Not going to buy.

 

that was the price on the site when I posted

 

You are correct sir.

 

But your agument makes no logical sense. I know the Pioneer has gotten some good reviews. Stereophile indicated that it sounded as goos as a mint Technics example. I'm willing to bet the Onkyo will meet with similar results and be a good buy for the money. If you look at the price point these tables are being sold at, they appear to be a really good deal. Some people don't trust vintage turntables and I do not blame them. I personally would never own a vintage Technics, Thorens, or Pioneer. I'm happy with the performance of the modern Tables that I have (although they are at a considerably higher price point).

Could Pioneer, Technics, or Onkyo release an internally designed and built Turntable? Would it be better than a Hanpin version? Hopefully! Would they cost several thousand dollars (i am guessing between $3k and $6k)? Certainly. Would they be a good value? Probably not.

 

First of all, Stereophile's statements about the PLX compared to a 1200 is BS. Full Stop. Secondly, a mistrust of vintage turntables that are clearly better built than these modern day Hanpins is what is truly illogical. New does not equate to better built and especially in this case. It begs the question most our directing my way, "Have you actually had hands on experience comparing the build quality of a new Hanpin and a "vintage" Technics, Thorens, Pioneer, or dang near anything?" The answer to that question is obvious. It reveals an obvious lack of experience. It's perfectly okay to be happy with anything you buy, even if it's a piece of crap. But, our happiness with a piece of crap still does not mean it's built better than something built like a brick poop house.

What this seems to center around is cost which makes no sense for two reasons. First, there are better built older tables that cost less than a $700 Hanpin. Suggesting a table that costs considerably more than that, whether from brands currently spitting out Hanpins, or from manufactures who actually give a darn, would probably not be a good value is ignorant, and I don't mean that in a malicious way. It smacks of sour grapes. If I can't afford, it must not be good value. Wrong.

 

First of all, I trust Stereophile a lot more than you. And I trust by the turntables that I own, I have a pretty good idea of what a nice turntable is. I also don't believe for one second that you have had the Pioneer or Onkyo in your hands to evaluate. I think I sense a little sour grapes on your part. It's ok, vintage stuff is cool.

I just don't think the Japanese manufactures can make a high end turntable that can compete with Clearaudio, VPI, Sota, Avid, Rega, etc. Maybe they will prove me wrong, but I wasn't impresses with a $6k Luxman offering. When you look at the 3k tables from the manufacturers I previously mentioned.

 

I value Stereophile measurements. I take all subjective reviews with a grain of salt. Glad you have such confidence. Believe what you want. It's not a matter of vintage stuff. It's a matter of vintage and built better and sounds better. Sour grapes. Have you looked at my profile. So, I should pass on a Trans-Fi (or other equivalent quality turntable) to buy a Hanpin??? Maybe, I should forgo a Schick tonearm or a Tri-Planar or an SME and just pull one of a Hanpin??? Would you? Apparently, not by your choice of tables. I think this conversation just went into the land of the irrational.

 

Not irrational at all on my part. I think the Onkyo and Pioneer will be quality turntables for the money. Stereophile thinks so about the Pioneer. Years ago, I demoed a Planar 2 vs the SL 1200 and chose the Rega. It isn't surprising to me that the Pioneer did well against it. I'd still reccomed somebody look at a RP3 over the Onkyo or Pioneer, depending on the prospective buyer's cartridge needs. I imagine most Buyers that put a Grado Gold or Ortofon Blue on the Onkyo or Pioneer will be extremely happy. I's stick with a Rega on the RP3.

 

I went to Nicholson's Stereo (you're in Nashville, you should know) back when they were still around I auditioned the Rega's (in the back room) they had there. Needless, to say, I stuck with the Technics tables I already had. I didn't need a colorful table that wasn't on speed, among other things. Nevertheless, I would recommend a P3 over the CP-1050 and the PLX-1000; but, not over a good condition 1200MK2. I'll leave it at that. If I didn't have what I have, was forced to buy new and I didn't have enough money for the others I mentioned, I would go for an entry level Pro-Ject or Rega with the full expectation that I'd have to get a better add on speed controller, an upgrade platter, the upgraded subplatter... on and on it goes. Or, I might just save longer.

 

I've never had speed issues with a Rega...quality issues either. I believe the speed issue was rectified years ago. To each their own. Back to the topic, I just don't think the Onkyo or Pioneer are garbage and will be a good buy for a lot of folks,

 

No he's not! Lighten up y'all. Mikay is entitled to his opinion here. We all dig the hobby so don't down a brothers throat for his opinion when WE all have an opinion.
The Onkyo is another hanpin 'ReBadge' unit, all good as it is. I just put the denon unit into service 3 days ago and it sounds beyond it's $349 list price, with of course an upgraded cart, the AT100E. But in all honesty the deck is a well made, but cheap entry level kit. That being said the Onkyo looks more substantially made, as it should look for $200 more than the Denon.
But lets agree to disagee on some things here. It's what brings life to the forum!

The beave

 

I agree with you, Beave. It is all about playing records and I've said all along, if the spinner does no harm to the vinyl, no foul.

I've said before, too, that I like the fact that they (Onkyo) did not go for the Technics copycat thing though the Onkyo is a Hanpin. No one is wrong for owning or using any of these tables. That's the part some folks always miss in these discussions. It's only the part about worse specs making a TT better than a table with better specs, and, worse build quality making a TT better than one with better build quality, and, claiming equality when the TT's aren't equal. Are we educating ourselves or allowing slick fascias and blue led's to fool us? Are we pushing for substance or just pandering to the marketeers and corporations? If the latter, we are doing a huge disservice to ourselves and others; in that case, we are cheating ourselves. A good product speaks for itself. It doesn't need hype. It doesn't need to boost it's own rep by bashing another's or even qualifying it's existence based on another. There are so many nice looking tables out there. Isn't anyone else getting tired of the 1200 look-a-likes........ anyway.

I've got nothing bad to say about the Denon. I've never laid hands on the Denon. But, I don't hear anyone making outrageous claims about it, either, which is refreshing, very refreshing. And, I certainly will accept it from you that it's a well-made affordable entry level deck. And, from what I can see, one of the most reasonably priced ones. At a glance, this to me seems like good value for the money.

 

Those who've gone with the Groovetracer subplatter and white belt (to correct certain issues) and an external speed drive (to make it run at 33.3 and not 33.45 or 33.5) might disagree with your assessment of the quality of Rega's on up thru the RP6. I agree with you on the Onkyo CP-1050. For the bit of extra styling one gets, and the fact that it's intent is not to be a 1200 replacement, it probably will be a good buy for some folks, provided it lasts longer than, say, the Denon. I do not agree with you on the PLX-1000. In time, I believe those who were looking for it to be a 1200 substitute will be sorely disappointed; but, only if they've had long time ownership experience with a real 1200.

 

Based on ? You haven't had anything to say about either deck that wasn't purely subjective. You like both of them, I get that. That's a basis on which others should buy these units? I'm sure someone somewhere likes their Crosley, too. The reason that there are specifications and why we discuss them is so that scientific measurements can be compared. The Pioneer isn't *garbage*. It does have flaws, though. Factual ones that have been discovered by real people. The W/F spec is published by the manufacturer even, and it's not 'great'. It may be acceptable to some, but it's not in the range that's likely acceptable to all. The Onkyo isn't *garbage*. I like the aesthetics of it. I think that, in general, both tables show that the industry is heading in the right direction. I don't think that they're quite there yet, however.

You can't argue with the spec...particularly when it's provided by the manufacturer. They claim that it is what it is...there's no disputing that. I don't see how you feel you can trump a scientific measurement with a 'but *I* like it, therefore it is good!'. That is irrational.

As far as the Stereophile review, the first third of it was basically a statement saying that the review was going to be subjective and not scientific, and if the reader didn't agree with that, they were an audio snob. Right off the bat, I knew we were in for something other than a scientific, measured review. Which is fine, if you're reviewing a new record, or a play, or a movie. It's generally not what we look for in audio reviews...they have traditionally been based on measurements taken with test equipment. One guy who has a job as a writer likes a product, and this you call a review? It's an opinion...not much of a review in terms of audio reviews.

Without scientific measurement, equipment reviews are pretty meaningless. We're all different, our ears hear differently, our brains process the information differently. Just because *you* like it and thinks it sounds good doesn't necessarily mean that someone else will hear and process the same thing. Scientific measurement is the only way that we have a level playing field to judge equipment by. It's not perfect, but anything less is just subjective hoo-ha.

 

So what you are stating to the folks on these forums: The only way to evaluate a piece of equipment, speakers, etc is by the manufacturers published specifications? Is this correct?

 

Not quite. But it's a start, and it's the only thing we have to evaluate with that isn't subjective to the variances of our ears, how our brains process what our ears hear, our own personal biases and preferences and other non-scientific means.

I know I'm new here, and I've ruffled a few feathers already. I'm kind of outspoken, moreso than I'd like to be at times, but that's me. However, I'll share with you a little secret. I don't have the best hearing. I lost partial hearing when I was a child during an illness and it never fully recovered. To me, perhaps, the specs mean more than to most, because they were my 'hearing ear dog' in the days when I was learning all about audio.

Back in 1976, I was 13 years old and had subscriptions to Audio, High Fidelity and Stereo Review. I circled all the numbers on the 'Reader Service Cards' and amassed a huge library of literature and brochures...I studied them dutifully. I was a geeky kid who grew up in the middle of nowhere with no neighbor kids to hang out with, so I had a lot of time on my hands, I admit. My stereo was my best friend next to my dog.

Through those specs, I would hear what 'good audio' should sound like where my ears would have normally failed me. On our trips to 'civilization' where stereo shops abounded, I would audition different pieces of gear and listen for the spec differences. I more or less trained myself via specs to be able to know what to listen for. By the time I was a senior in high school, I was running live sound for bands, by the time I was in my early 20's I was producing recordings in a small studio.

I don't have 'golden ears'. Far from it. Specs are what I trust as a starting point, because I don't trust myself to be able to hear the differences. I do know that other people...the average person...probably can hear things that I cannot. Science has been my crutch...spectrum analyzers, oscilloscopes and with the coming of digital recording on computers, the graphic interface has made it downright easy...I can visually recognize problem areas.

But I digress. To answer your question, I start with the manufacturer's specs. They're the ones making the claim. I then look for test reports/reviews to see if those claims are upheld by independent research, if possible. I also take in to consideration information gathered on forum boards, things like, "Some units seem to be shipping with loose tonearm bearings" or other consumer-end discoveries. Finally, I'll look at the subjective opinions of owners, because pieces of equipment have been known to exist that are wonderful according to specs but just don't sound all that great. There's a 'magic' component that's hard to define that some pieces of gear possess and others do not.

More often than not, though, if I see something in the manufacturer's specs that I'm not comfortable with, I move on to the next piece of gear. If the manufacturer isn't claiming great performance, I don't expect that I'll be the beneficiary of it by buying that product.

That's about as honest of an answer as I can give you.

 

A perfectly reasonable approach.

 

Excellent post Mikay!
Hear Ye Hear Ye!
the beave

 

I have been watching this discussion and thinking about the points of view and comments. As in most things everyone speaks his or her own piece of truth. I agree that some equipment is superior to other equipment. Some equipment will last for decades and some won't last and won't be worth fixing. Some cheaply priced equipment may actually be better in some ways than some expensive equipment. Some vintage is better but not all. Some vintage is better but can't be fixed due to no parts and no know-how. Some Chinese stuff may be as good as you will ever care to own or need. Your ideas about all of this may change/evolve. And you know what? As long as you are not being conned by hype and you know what you are buying it is your free choice and all is good. Personally I happen to love vintage and have Thorens and Sansui. My new table is a greatly discounted Denon anniversary DD table. I use it regularly and appreciate it as a new simple piece of equipment that will prob, give me many years of service and looks very nice. Is the arm as good as the arm on my SR 929( made by Micro Seiki)?No way.Was it worth full price asked? For me no-but it was worth To Me the discounted price I eventually acquired it for. In the final analysis if you care about getting the best possible equipment at your price do your research and don't swallow hype-buy a Honest product at whatever price you feel is fair for value. Oh and don't forget to enjoy the music!

 

Good point. I know my wife would kill me if I spent 2k on a turntable for my birthday, so I got the pioneer plx1000 and then secretly ordered the budgie sut, a denon 301mk2 and an audio technica at33ev. Two beautiful cartridges and they both sound awesome. Yes the bearings were loose, but I tightened them following the excellent advice on the kab website. My dad had a cheap onkyo turntable when I was growing up and it was downright terrible. No isolation, horrible hum and feedback issues. As I got older, I tried to modify as well as I could, spent my hard earned cash on a mat, a grado cartridge, record cleaning stuff etc. It never got better. It was obvious that this was no top of the line onkyo. And that's my point. Today's Han pins are probably much better than the cheap tables of yesteryear. And my dad's table was not even onkyo, it was oem. Japanese oem, I suppose. My friend from school down the street had exactly the same turntable under the Scott brand. His dad had bought it too. But in the end, I learned a lot about music and lived some great fantasies listening to glorious performances. That's what really counts. Who cares wether Mahler's 2nd symphony is played by the Berlin philharmonic or your community orchestra? The music transcends the vehicle. Go listen to your orchestra in your hometown. Support them and enjoy the experience of live music. It will teach you about listening without judgment.
I know that my young daughter will have many memorable musical experiences with our new pioneer/hanpin turntable. Heck, at age six, I'm already teaching her how to put the record on and respect the needle. when my dad bought that onkyo, I doubt that he even had the option to return it or, that the warranty was that good. We are lucky that way today. We expect so much and self entitlement drives people to buy maliciously with the intent to return. Those you don't like their hanpin, you can return it. Just don't ruin it for the hard working people are trying to put food on the table and get a little enjoyment at the same time.

One more thing : you can read horror stories of micro Seiki , yamaha and Kenwood tables with blown ic's and switches that are out of production. They end up reaching the end of the Internet looking for those oem Nos parts. I know, I own two sl10s that I got on eBay One was meant to be the parts bitch.

 

I just brought one of these Onkyo turntables home from my local stereo shop. After reading the thread, especially the posts of folks who apparently have an irrational distrust anything made in China, I've got to say that I was more than a little apprehensive about the table. After a couple of days of listening, I can say that to my ears, the only thing bad about the table is the horrible joke of a cartridge Onkyo puts on the table. It was truly rancid. My dealer gave me $40 credit for the cart against the purchase of a low end Ortofon. To give you an idea how bad the default cart is, this Ortofon is leagues better than the default.
Other posts have made a fairly huge deal about wow/flutter on these tables. To my ears, those concerns are misplaced. W/F on the Onkyo is about the same as it is on my Debut Carbon.
The build quality of this table seems pretty good to me. I have no complaints. In fact, it seems pretty solid. The tonearm has none of the wiggly problems that were described in another post. The counterbalance seems pretty accurate to me. I use a microgram scale to check the weight I set on the counterbalance against reality. While not perfect to the 10,000th of a gram, it is close enough for my purposes.
I would definitely recommend this table to someone who had budgeted a table in the $300-$500 range for a new table. Unless you have extremely discerning ears (and most non-audiophallic listeners do not), you will be perfectly satisfied with this table. I am personally almost satisfied with the value of the table. The incredibly bad cartridge that comes with it takes the value down a couple of notches.

 

What's so bad about the Ortofon ? Looks good on paper.

 

I believe he's saying that he upgraded to the Ortofon cartridge. The stock cartridge looks like a Pfanstiehl MG-29D, or one of the entry-level conical-tip Audio Technica models.

 

He's implying the Ortofon he bought to replace the stock cart is not that good. I just asked why.