Pioneer's new PLX-1000 Turntable

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by bluelips, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Actually, the spindle-to-pivot distance on the Pioneer is the same as on the SL1200 MKII: 215mm, or 8.46".

    If you check out the specs at Pioneer EU the overhang is 15mm and effective length 230mm. These are exactly the same as for the SL1200 MKII. Yes, the Pioneer US site gives these in inches but even the conversion works out the same: 9.05" effective length (229.87mm) and 0.59" overhang (15mm).
     
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  2. Turntable

    Turntable Senior Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    The one piece PNP integrated units have a headshell to stylus of 52mm. Pioneer manual states 54mm.

    I wonder what the difference is?
     
  3. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm

    2mm.
     
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  4. jonstatt

    jonstatt Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    Well, I am outside this consensus if there is one. To me the only thing so far that I found to make large levels of difference is the cartridge. I tried a friends "leather" turntable mat...no difference to sound (background noise) although static was reduced when I lifted the record away. I have tried replacing the provided Pioneer interconnect cables with a Van Den Hull Isis phono speciality cable....no obvious difference and although I have no way to measure, it would therefore appear the capacitance of the provided cable is low (as the 2M series are sensitive to higher capacitance resulting in a treble peak) . And I tried changing the headshell to a Sumiko HS-12 headshell which is a decent one, and although I could hear a difference it was a negative one (sounded closed in slightly)....which I suspect is because it is a slightly heavier headshell increasing the mass of the arm which is NOT a good idea with the 2M series carts. The 2M series cartridges are high compliance which means they are best suited to lower mass arms. It is really important to not assume a heavier headshell is somehow better..... Yes, the Pioneer headshell cables are less weighty than some designs, but the length is so short that IMO it is unlikely to make much of a difference. I realise people want to adjust the azimuth and that certainly is a good justification if yours is off, but watch the mass if using a high compliance cartridge.

    However, the difference between the 2M Red and 2M Black was huge. I have heard some describe the 2M Red as digital sounding. The first thought when you hear description is that it is bright or harsh. Well actually the frequency response of the red is pretty flat assuming the capacitance into the pre-amp is kept low. It isn't overly bright....but it is coarse sounding in the treble. It's a bit like taking a perfect sine wave, and then adding little "nicks" into it's otherwise smooth shape. The 2M Black is just much smoother in the treble, while still maintaining the high level of detail that makes the Red a bargain. The Red is much better value than the Black, but I just didn't get on with it.

    BTW, for those in Europe, Amazon France sells the 2M Black for about 40% less cost than the typical UK price, including Amazon UK.....no idea why such a large difference.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
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  5. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    I've just been Googling around a bit and there's not much around about it other than folks speculating on the difference being to more closely approximate Baerwald. This actually makes sense in that, with a pivot-to-spindle measurement of 215mm, the effective length of a Baerwald alignment is almost exactly 2mm longer than a Stevenson. Of course the angle is about 1 degree more towards the spindle.
     
  6. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Wow that is cheaper. For those of us outside of the EU, it's even cheaper since the VAT is removed. With the conversion, the Amazon France price works out to be almost 300 cheaper than the typical Canadian price ($460 instead of $749). Of course there'd be some shipping and then there's always the risk of customs charging duty (Canadian customs pick parcels randomly for charging duty. Most of the time parcels go through without duty, but it can happen).
     
  7. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Unfortunately, if you read the fine print, it says they don't deliver to Canada (I wasn't planning on buying anyway, just curious to see how much VAT would be removed).
     
  8. Turntable

    Turntable Senior Member

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    very funny :biglaugh:
     
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  9. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Keep your Concorde with the new stylus and fuggedaboutit;)
     
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  10. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    I seem to remember seeing that there was a difference of 1.5 mm. I may, however, be incorrect.
     
  11. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
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  12. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    I've had the 2M Black for awhile (actually it started life as a 2M Bronze but I upgraded the stylus). I can't speak for its performance on the PLX-1000 (yet) but I do use it on my old Pro-Ject Xpression II (both my ATs were too fragile for my big clumsy hands).

    On a really good pressing with the right capacitance (meaning total below 300pF all cabling and phono stage combined) it's just about the sweetest sounding cartridge you could ever ask for, truly amazing imaging, celestial highs, dynamic, solid bass, magical midrange, in short the works!

    On anything less than a great or just average pressing, meh (and darn!). You know what it's capable of with the good pressings, so it routinely aggravates you that the average pressing you're listening to could sound great but doesn't.

    On a poor pressing, old pressing, noisy pressing. Ouch! This thing really is not at all forgiving! Both ATs I've owned dealt with crappy pressings much better. They weren't perfect and they had their own issues, but they tracked through stuff that stops the 2M Black in its tracks! (mind you, I do have a couple of LPs that had skips with the ATs but not with the 2M, go figure!).

    I might add to that last category, otherwise good pressings that are cut a little hot on treble transients. For example, the Classic Records Led Zeppelin II or the first Dire Straits LP. Both of these play through fine with ATs but have occasional issues with sibilance when played with the Ortofons I've owned (OM Super 20, 2m Bronze and 2M Black).

    The one proviso I'd offer here is that some of what I'm describing here may have to do with my tonearm, turntable. I've always had issues with the Pro-Ject motors (quite frankly they suck!). Plus I find that the whole mechanism of the Pro-Ject tonearm is clumsy and inaccurate (two little setscrews to hold the vertical tube for adjusting VTA, one of which doesn't work at all, and the other which changes the lateral angle of the vertical tube and thus the whole tonearm when you tighten it, etc.

    Also I might add that, in my experience, quality control at Ortofon sucks (or else they're sending all their seconds to their Canadian distributor!). I've had four of their styli on three different cartridges and all were mounted on off-center cantilevers. My most recent 2M Black cantilever veers to the left by about 3° and since the stylus is also not vertical due to this, I needed to twist my tonearm's azimuth adjustment vertically to the left to get even azimuth tracking. To be fair, I had the same issue with the "specially priced" ATOC9MLII I got from LPgear a few years ago. Its cantilever was bent to the left to the point where I had to shim the cartridge since even full left on the tonearm azmiuth adjustment wasn't enough). These experiences have led me to highly recommend a headshell with adjustable azimuth.

    In any case, I've seen others with similar comments about the 2M Black. It can sound great, truly great, but the conditions have to be right. Without everything in place, it can be frustrating and unsatisfying. It's also grossly overpriced. If you want a similar sound but at a lower price, try an Ortofon OM40 with FG70 stylus from turntableneedles.com for $375 or if you have an old OM cartridge around just buy the Jico shibata stylus from LPgear or turntableneedles.com.

    In all these cases, you can only get the best performance out of a cartridge if you align it properly and adjust VTF and VTA. The latter is especially important with line contact, microridge and shibat styli.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
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  13. Dr. Metal MD

    Dr. Metal MD Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Thank you for such an in-depth response! I appreciate your input. I have a couple quick questions for you. Forgive my ignorance, but do you have a link to site or something that will properly explain how set/measure/etc the capacitance and what exactly I am measuring with the capacitance? Also, my AT LP120 does not have the ability to adjust VTA, and I was not aware of how it even gets adjusted on TTs. Does the PLX-1000 allow for VTA adjustment or is it only available in certain tonearms? Thanks a ton for the help! I really do appreciate it.
     
  14. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Actually the ATLP120 does have the ability to adjust VTA just as the PLX-100 does. It's the arm height adjustment.

    As for capacitance, you need to add the capacitance of your phono preamp to that of your cables and also the internal cabling of your turntable. Typically you`re looking at about 100pF for the internal cabling (if not more in some cases). If I remember correctly the ATLP120 has hardwired cables so there's not much you can do with that.
     
  15. Dr. Metal MD

    Dr. Metal MD Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Ahhhh okay! Thanks! Any tips on setting up the VTA properly? I can hardly see the stylus on my JICO SAS. I read that it's kind of just testing what different levels sound like until you hit that sweet spot where everything just sounds 'right'.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
  16. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    Given that the arms are similar, as are our cartridges and head shells- try unlocking the dial, setting it at 2, and locking it . It's perfect with my Pioneer and Shure.
     
  17. Dr. Metal MD

    Dr. Metal MD Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Thanks! I am using a fairly thick corkstone mat, though. I'll give it a try and see what I hear. I've just been keeping it at 0 the entire time. I know this is a thread on the PLX-1000, but I really appreciate all of you helping me out as a beginner and answering my questions.
     
  18. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    Sorry, I'm a bit tired from work today. I wasn't thinking- I'm using a thick (6mm) mat too.
     
  19. Dr. Metal MD

    Dr. Metal MD Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I was just messing around with it while playing a 180 gram record and I do think I hear better dynamics, balance, and a wider soundstage when it's at 3 on my setup. My mat is somewhere around 6.5 mm.
     
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  20. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    Sounds like you are on the right track then.
     
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  21. Dr. Metal MD

    Dr. Metal MD Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Great! Quick question do you change your VTA slightly when you listen to a thin record vs a 180-200 gram one?
     
  22. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Some folks do, but really there are so many variations in cutting angle, etc., that even the best VTA setting is only good about 80% of the time from what I've read. If you have an on-the-fly system like yours or on the PLX-1000, SL1200/1210, etc., then go for it. This is yet another reason why I'm leaning in this direction for my next turntable. My Pro-Ject allows VTA adjustment, but it's via a setscrew on the back of the tonearm base and every time I adjust it, I have to recheck alignment, etc.
     
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  23. That cannot be correct. The plastic parts of the stylii bodies are completely different shapes.

    [​IMG]
     
  24. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Nope it actually works. I tried an old OM20 stylus on my 2M Black and it worked.

    Here's the video I mentioned:
     
  25. My image disappeared and I can't seen your video. Hot linking problems, I guess.
     

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