Where to go next - upgrading from a Rega P3-24?

I've had Rega turntables and Dynavector cartridges for a few years, now, and in that time I've been interested to read what others think about them. Many don't like Rega cartridges and some don't like the GT platter. Those are the places I'd look, if I were attempting to improve or tailor your system. I actually liked my Rega Elys, so I don't count myself among those who don't like Rega cartridges, but I do like my 10x4 and 20xH very well. The 10x4 got retipped by Soundsmith and then installed on my wife's Debut III. The 20XH is on my P9 now, although my plan is to put the Benz back on it eventually. I've been enjoying the punchy aspects of the 20XH. I guess what I mean by all this is maybe a cartridge within the capabilities of a P3-24 could be a worthwhile upgrade.

 

Can anyone familiar with both Rega and VPI compare the two sounds? I'm curious about the VPIs since I see many recommendations for them in this price range.

 

Quick and dirty summary -----

VPI -- Very solid bottom end, great detail and info retrieval. Heavy build.

Rega -- Fast, "rock n roll" type sound. Very lively, tons of PRAT. Fun to listen to. Light build.


Both (to me) build great turntables.

 

question, if you don't mind:

how often do you have a customer come into your store with an open mind, willing to try out a VPI vs a Rega? If fairly frequently, how do people usually respond? Is the preference evenly split?

 

I've had 2 different VPI Scout tables and a Rega P3 with Groovetracer mods. All had a Dynavector 10x5 installed. Both brands had their good and bad points. I purchased a Well Tempered Labs Amadeus table a year ago and the honeymoon phase hasn't ended. The WTL is a bit different conceptually, but it sounds great. Definitely worth considering at that price level.

 

Quite often actually. The price points of the Rega's and VPI's line up to where there are good options with both brands (Scout JR versus RP6 / Classic 1 versus RP8 / Prime&Classic 3 versus Rp10, etc).

It tends to be a pretty even split in the end. Both brands sound good....surprisingly a lot of times it comes down to which tonearm the customer is comfortable with. I see a lot of "new" turntable owners lean towards the Rega as they tend to be a bit easier to use. Where as seasoned vinyl folks a lot of times sway towards VPI. But this is not always the case (just sold an RP8 to a VPI customer of mine as he just wanted a different sound).

In my opinion between VPI, Rega, Project, Well Tempered and Clearaudio there are quite a few really nice turntables at affordable prices now. Great time to buy a table!

 

I have the PolyTable. George finished it up for me on April 17th. I went to his shop and picked it up on the 18th. Incredible table! Built like a tank, and dead quiet. No surprises. As I mentioned in my previous posts, he mounted my Ortofon 2M Bronze on it. I went with the Jelco SA-750E tonearm. So; I have about $2,000 invested. I also just picked up his PolyWeight, and PolyCover. I'll get some photos posted.
I highly recommend the PolyTable. Give George a call if interested. He loves his craft, and enjoys talking about his turntables and design philosophy. The PolyTable is actually built right in his shop in Cordova, TN.
George Merrill: 901.751.3337

 

I can't agree more with GKH. I have the same set-up with exception of an Ortofon Quintet Blue. At this price point, I have never heard a table that is this quiet, the sound just appears out of a silky, black background (vs. Rega RP6 and VPI Classic 1). The PolyTable is easy to set-up and the Jelco arm allows adjustable VTA and Azimuth with ease. This is a true set and forget table, built in the USA and George is wonderful to work with!

 

I'm the guy mentioned by Goldprint who switched from a Classic to a RP8 (and soon an RP10). I'd be happy to detail my experiences with the two, but I'm afraid I'll upset both the Rega and the VPI crowds! Both are excellent, but far from perfect.

 

screw that. i'd love to hear your thoughts. my next table will probably be a RP8 or Classic

 

An alternative might be to install an Audiomods tone-arm. Just google them - they are made specifically for Rega TT's

I purchased one of these a couple of years back and have not regretted it - they are superb - everything a Rega tone-arm should have been.

Jeff at Audiomods requires all the details about your TT + cartridge and builds the arm to match.

I went with the Classic Series 3 (the more affordable one) with the Micrometer VTA and one piece loom with KLEI Harmony RCA's.

It requires about 4-6 weeks lead time + shipping time

I also use a Denon DL103 cartridge modified by Soundsmith, which I purchased directly from them - it's quicker than having them mod an existing cart.

The combination of this Arm + Cartridge is exceptional - i.e. on my TT

Another Cartridge that also matches this arm extremely well is the Zu/DL-103.
http://www.zuaudio.com/phono-cartridges/standard

But a stock DL 103 ($229) or the DL 103R ($379) will also sound very nice.

Regards...

 

I agree, my next deck will probably be a RP8, RP10 or the Merrill PolyTable since the designer lives about an hour from me...

 

Anyone heard how sales are doing on RP8 and RP10? I rarely read about them anywhere.

 

Owning a P3-24 myself, my advice is a table with adjustable azimuth and VTA. IMHO, there is no good reason for those adjustments to be fixed. And I don't care what Roy Gandy says.

 

I'll post something extensive a little later.... topline: I prefer the RP8 with caveats... one major (perhaps deal-killing for some), one minor. Hoping the RP10 will address the major one.

 

I've now owned both a Classic 1 and Rega RP8. I've enjoyed both, but they are like opposites ... if only I could combine their powers! Note that my observations are subjective and other owners of either table may feel differently. Others may not feel much of what I present below to be important, or even audible.

Should also mention that both blow away some cheaper tables I've owned in the past, which include Rega P1 and P3, and a Pro-Ject some years back.

Classic 1 Pros:

• Beautiful looks
• Tests nearly dead-0n at 33.34 (without stylus drag) with very low pitch variance or wow/flutter - Harry wasn't lying about master-tape quality stability and accuracy.
• Tonearm is an excellent tracker - once dialed in
  
• On the right records, big deep tight low end. I'm thinking of the Hoffman "Fleetwood Mac" release as I type this.

Classic 1 Negatives:

• Once I heard motor noise in the background I couldn't unhear it (I have sensitive speakers, and sensitive ears... or maybe I'm just picky). I've seen at least one other thread commenting on this.
• Although I took care of most of the low-level grounding hum, it was never fully eradicated. I always suspected the unshieded tonearm wire was picking up some RF.
• Anti-skate solution is less than ideal, could never quite dial it in. I eventually removed the fishing line and went with a single twist of the tonearm wire which seemed good enough but not precise.
• On the wrong recordings a slow, lumbering sound. I never isolated the table or experimented with alternative placements (which are limited in my case). This was with a Linn Adkit cart that certainly never felt slow or lumbering before.
• Pain to set azimuth with the counterweight. Mine had a non-adjustable azimuth ring, which displeased me.
• I really had to work with VTA to get the sound just right. I never thought VTA mattered until this table.

So traded it in for the Rega RP8.... thanks to Goldprint Audio for working with me on the trade. I did consider moving to the Prime, or an Aries 3. Something with detached motor.


Rega RP8 Pros:

• Dead silent background. Although I can hear the motor through the plinth its not making it to the speakers. No grounding issues either.
• Rb808 us a lovely tonearm, silky smooth and so simple. I like the on-the-fly anti-skate, and I don't need azimuth adjustment. VTA is good with the Rega Apheta, so no need to mess with that either.
• The Apheta is an amazing cart, nice discount when bought with the RP8. (note I'm using it with a Aria phono stage)
• Nice lively sound. Needledrops and Audacity comparisons reveal very limited room interaction (easy enough to test and compare!). No isolation attempted, so good news here.
• The super-light / rigid plinth philosophy works.
• It's the best sounding vinyl setup I've ever owned, how's that for a positive?

Rega RP8 Negatives:

• Feels so cheap. And looks so ugly (especially with the outer surround and Rega's dustcover in place). The outer surround moves around too much and barely supports the dustcover in upright position. I removed both and am using the a smoked table-top dustcover from stereosquares (which was my plinth-top dustcover for the Classic). Which helps. But Rega could have done something else with the outer surround.
• Mine ran .7% fast at 33.3 and 1.1% fast at 45rpm. Fremer noted similar results, as have others around the Internets. Pitch stability not to VPI levels, per measurements. But still very good at +/- 0.2 to +/- 0.3%. (VPI was +/- 0.1%).
• Dual belts: Better measurements with one versus two belts. I'm running it with only one belt. I'm questioning the whole dual belt concept now.
• I'm told I can loosen the motor bolts and play with motor placement to speed up (closer to spindle) or slow down (farther from spindle) the table. Come on Rega, u should have done this at the factory.

The RP8 is much closer to perfect, minus the speed issue. I'm getting over my previously held heavy = better misconceptions now that I've heard light/rigid in action. I'm actually trading up to a RP10 where I hope the upgraded power supply will/should bring accuracy and enhanced stability to the table. And I get the ceramic platter and the RB2000 tonearm as icing... although I'm perfectly happy with the RP8's tonearm and platter. I'm way into cost territory I never imagined I'd enter!

Will report back on the RP10 in a few weeks.

So far as the OP's question: Rp8 would make for a hell of an upgrade, and you may already be accustomed to a table that runs a little fast.

 

Great write up. Thank you

 

Very informative review and answers many of my questions, I've heard the RP8/Apheta/Aria combo and like it, looking forward to your thoughts and impressions on the RP10 which is also on my list. Looks like another Rega could be in the future...

 

I have heavily researched the GT sub platter and not a single report I have read is anything less than glowing. Is it the GT sub platter, or maybe platter, your referring to?

 

I do mean the platter. I too have seen nothing but glowing reports on the subplatter. I've written one or two myself.

 

Regarding that the Rega runs fast. I recommend changing to the Edward little blue belt. For me and most others it gets 33.3 spot on. I use the RP6 and would have thought of an upgrade if the RP8 looked better. Cannot handle the foam and finish/design of it even if it's really good acoustically

http://www.analogueseduction.net/tu...io-little-belter-rega-upgrade-drive-belt.html

 

for those who have swapped out arms on a rega table. Is there any arm in particular that makes the mdf rega sound a bit more like the older classic analog sound of a thorens or AR? or is the only way to get that sound with the suspension table? I had the rega p3/24 but went back to a suspended thorens and now i'm looking into getting a second table rega but want to put an arm on it that makes it a little more vintage turntable sound...any ideas?

 

Tried that! Edited out of the review, figuring I was already too deep into the weeds.

The Little Belter slowed my RP8 down to 32rpm. However, they (I installed two) did measure much better on the wow/flutter. I may try again on the RP10 in combination with the electronic speed control.

I was able to get very close on speed by combining belts (one blue and one white) but the pitch instability was off the charts. The Rega white belt is visibly thicker than the Little Belter (didn't measure).

On the RP8 polyolefinin plinth.... I just have to remind myself that past rega tables were made of MDF or particleboard. Even the Classic is an MDF sandwich, I believe.

The lightness is due to the use of better, not cheaper, materials. But it is a thing one has to overcome to feel a sense of value from the table - and the RP8 doesn't ever remind you why it costs $3k until you sit down and listen.

 

Nice post. I am sure that you will be thrilled with what the RP10 delivers. The RP8 is a great table, and it's a great table for the price. The RP10 adds a few items that cost considerably more to make things even a little nicer overall. The upgrades are to the power supply, the platter, and most notably the tonearm. The RB2000 tonearm is exceptional. It is way better than even the RB808, so you really haven't heard just what is possible on the same basic platform as the RP8 until you have experience with the RP10 and its wonderful arm. The RB808 will support $2k cartridges easily, but the RB2000 gets even more detail and dynamics from the same cartridges and makes even more expensive cartridges capable of full expression. You can tell the quality of the RP10 is better just by touching it. When you lift the arm with your finger and move it from the arm rest to the record, it has an absolutely effortless glide to it that the other arms do not quite have.

The thing about the Rega speed being measured without the needle in the groove is a little odd since it is so obviously important considering th design differences of the table to others. people often try and compare it to a DD table or to a belt drive table with a very thick and heavy platter. That isn't going to be apples to apples as you can take speed measurements from the latter group without regard to record surface drag as the drives are so heavy that it really doesn't effect them much. The Rega tables however, have much lower torque motors and require a longer time to develop and maintain speed, with any drag applied slowing the platter a bit. So two things happen as the tables gets some play which will slow the start-up speed a bit, one is the stylus drag from a good elliptical or line contact stylus, and the other is the wear of the drive belt. Certainly the stylus drag takes effect very quickly. belt wear happens over a period of time during ownership. So rather than the belt system being dead on at start-up and when fresh, the system will follow a bell curve (just as most any other engineered systems) of performance, with speed becoming more accurate as the belt slowly wears-in and then slowly more slow as the belt wears out. vacuum tubes also exhibit this same sort of wear-in and wear-out behavior. both the belts and tubes are easily user replacable. Since we are talking about only +/- .5% here, this is pretty esoteric. Only a very small, probably a fraction of a percent of buyers are even concerned with it as it isn't noticeable to them. There will always be the obsessive type who must tweak or measure everything though. Biasing a tube amplifier can be such a chore for these types, where others can set it and forget it for months.
-Bill

 

Well I'm certainly the obsessive type -- which is why i prefaced my write up with the caveat that many of my observations may or may not be even important (or audible) to others! It certainly makes sense that the belt would stretch (and therefore slow down a touch) with extended use. Probably important to note that the "Little Belter" is resulting in a severe underspeed even prior to break-in....