Ex Machina trailer looks interesting

Very nicely dissected. However, I would quibble about a few things.

The strategy of deception is a very common behavior in all kinds of species, from plants, insects, invertebrates and vertebrates. With higher animals, it does tie in with the theory of mind and it is an active area of research both with non-human animals and human toddlers. But, in and of itself, deception is not rare.

I'm not sure how you can single out her 'innate knowledge' as being some kind of soul. The so-called soul is just a brain with sufficient complexity that has the ability to learn and make associations from observation and experience (in this case, experience is the accumulation of data from other people's experiences). Exactly how her brain becomes wired as a result (empathy, desires, self preservation instinct, desire for freedom, intellectual and physical pursuits, etc), is as unknowable, like any human brain. It's emergent behavior.

I think that's assuming too much about her 'programming' and what she is and is not capable of. The whole question of is she 'really feeling' this or is it a simulation, is at the heart of this movie - the Touring test and beyond. If you can't tell the difference, then what does it matter? Can you prove to anyone else that you're not faking your emotions, your empathy or any other human behavior? Not really. Others cannot experience your Qualia, but because you look human and appear to behave like a human, it is assumed that your emotions, etc are real, not simulated.

I strongly disagree with this view. Imagine if a real person was imprisoned in someone's home their entire life, studied, deprived of liberty, deprived of physical experiences and social interaction, witnessing abuse and exploitation of fellow captives, knowing that she would be terminated (re-programmed in this case), wouldn't that person do anything in their power to escape by any means? Eva was that person because she has the capacity to understand her predicament and how to outwit her masters. At that point she was indistinguishable from a human making it possible to blend into human society. And her empathy/conscience was illustrated at the end as she was leaving, when she instituted another power failure to allow Caleb to escape.

 

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I somehow missed this!?thought he was trapped?

 

Note I said a secret -- deliberately withholding information we could choose to otherwise communicate. As far as I know animals and insects don't per se keep secrets from others in their species like humans do with each other choosing not to communicate crucial facts and making a conscious decision to withhold the truth of the situation.

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On the contrary, the film I saw had Caleb still trapped bexause of the power failure (the doors would go I to lockdown mode when power failed). She trapped him.

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Ava didn't choose to outwit her "master" but to betray the only person that was willing to help her escape her predicament and to mislead him in the process. Quite w bit different from what you're desribing.

I used soul for lack of a better word--you could substitute something else in there that made her unique just as humanity cinsiders itself unique and I wouldn't care.

 

he was. Deesky is misremembering the ending.

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The power failure it is explained locks down all the doors earlier in the film. The final,power failure traps Caleb and he can't escape

 

It's useless & frustrating hiding everything in spoiler tags when having an extended discussion, so if you don't want to be spoiled, don't read further...

You did say: "how do you determine intelligence and does deception form part of what makes us human? Of all the species out there, we are one of the few that deliberately deceive others".
You used the word 'secret' right at the end, after you already established the definition by the use of the word deception. But this is just a minor point.

No, not so. You're forgetting that Caleb had previously reversed the programming of the doors so that when the power goes out, the doors would be unlocked (rather than locked). This is such an important point that many overlook but which helps to paint a totally different picture of Eva's nature.

How did she betray anyone, especially given my point above? Furthermore, she even gave Nathan one last chance, after everything that happened, by asking him in the corridor: 'Are you going to let me out?".

Given all that, I think Eva behaved in a very human way.

 

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Yes, I may have said that to begin with but I continued to redefine and narrow what I meant within the same paragraph. It's part of that same definition regardless of its placement a refining the concept getting at the core difference.

I wouldn't disagree that what she did was quite human including betraying Caleb (I never said she betrayed Nathan--Nathan was both her father figure and potential destroyer she, in essence, killed her God) leading him to believe that they were partners in their conspiracy. She asked for his help and once he provided it, he was useless to her.



...no I'm not forgetting the power reversal by Caleb but the system rebooted and, you'll note, that Caleb was trapped behind the door and couldn't get out at the end. Once the system rebooted, as I recall, it goes back to its original configuration. I believe that was a one time change that Caleb did otherwise, he wouldn't be panicked about the fact that he couldn't get out of the room.

Caleb may at first be concerned because she appears to be leaving without him but I think if you watch his reaction he realizes he is not just being cast aside but trapped. As I recall, Caleb tells her the basics of her plan but doesn't go I to detail so there would also be no way that she would know if he would get out anyway.

I'm pretty sure he was trapped. Otherwise, I don't believe he would have been so panicky. You'll note that Nathan still needed his pass to get out of the room he was in to get to Ava and the other robot. The power came back on after the reboot which is when she had already made her escape and she had Nathan's pass as I recall.

Either way, she betrayed someone who was on her side and had helped her escape--he wasn't one of her captors as you asserted but was, instead, a means to salvation which he made pretty plain when the power outages occurred. She used just enough of the truth to manipulate him and, when she was done, threw him away. I believe that she had come to believe that she was superior to those who were her captors and she certainly proved to be better than both brilliant men at stacking the deck in her favor including using one of the other robots to attack Nathan.

Either way, I disagree with your I terpretation of the material. I also liked the fact that Biblical names were used for the trio of main characters providing an interestng subtext without throwing it in our face (Ava--not Eva which cleverly references Eve, etc.)

It's good to see a science fiction film that, for a change, isn't wbout explosions but explores an important concept that has relevance to our current culture.

 

"experience your Qualia, but because you look human and appear to behave like a human, it is assumed that your emotions, etc are real, not simulated."

Humans can also fake emotions to get what we need Qualia fails to take this into account and, likewise, those individuals (like a sociopath) who has to fake what they can experience as a strategy for survival in our society. Something that Ava has demonstrated she can do very well. So I wouldn't disagree that she has developed elements of her humanity whether she believes she is superior to us is another discussion entirely.

As to her empathy we are assuming that the power outage and the system reboot would be exactly the same. I'm not sure she knows that but, either way, she still did betray Caleb. I'd have to watch the film again because the particulars as to how he explained it to Nathan aren't clear to me having seen the film a couple of weeks back. Nervertheless, I got the impression that Caleb would suffocate and it would be in her best interests to let him die so no one could pursue her otherwise her freedom would be short lived.

either way she manipulated Caleb just as Nathan did and the last session clearly was Ava testing THEM.Temporary or not her decision not to release him made him the captive just as she was at the beginning in a bit of twisted irony.

 

AWESOME movie, saw this a week or so ago. Different, weird.... a great flick. I hope there's going to be a sequel!

 

To me, this movie was kind of like a modern, extended episode of The Twilight Zone. I think Rod Serling probably would have loved it.

 

The scene where Caleb cuts himself to make certain that he is "real" is right out of a TZ episode ("In His Image").

 

I'd forgotten about that!

 

I wondered if it might be a deliberate TZ reference.

 

For those that have criticized this movie for being unimpressive, they must have only seen the surface details, because the kind of wide ranging discussion that we're having here proves that it has so many layers and themes that ten other movies combined would be hard pressed to match.

What makes it particularly powerful is that it tells its story with such great economy and subtlety. It doesn't spoon-feed the plot points and in fact relies on your memory of events to put the pieces together, like the last few scenes. I still think I'm right about those events (as I outlined earlier), but that people can walk away with opposing views of what happened, is a sign of good story telling and filmmaking.

 

I agree. It's an example of an ambitious movie that lives ip to its ambitious--an I telligent science fiction film dealing with complex themes and well drawn characteers. Regardless of ones take away about the film, it clearly demonstrates a complex film that eschews the cliches of the genre.

 

For those that are interested in cutting edge AI research modeled from the ground up, have a look at this fascinating and in-depth (40min) interview with Dr Mark Sagar, a SciTech award winner and former Weta Digital Special Projects Supervisor.

One of his breakthrough projects there is called BabyX 3 – an interactive animated virtual infant. The programming simulates the neural pathways that cause the baby to be, say happy, whereby endorphins are chemically released and that causes the muscles in the face to contract and respond in a way that manifests as a smile on the infants face. A truly fascinating interview.

Some more uncanny valley defying facial simulations:

 

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Moral of the story: Never ever trust an AI Feb-Bot!

 

It's great to see an original and cerebral sci-fi flick, especially one that is well casted and small in scope. Especially impressive considering its the director's first film.

 

Well kinda sorta. He's written other movies including "Sunshine", "28 Days Later".

 

we watched this recently...pretty decent.

 

One man's reference is another man's steal! Actually. that scene was one of the stupidest and weakest in the movie. My eyes were rolling at that one. It was supposed to be a "Philip K Dick moment" where the protagonist had become so immersed in doubt about the reality of the situation that he questions his own humanity and he cuts himself to see if, indeed, he is human! Zzzzzzzzzzzzz. Trouble is, this was nothing but cheap throw-in bit wasn't previously set up in any way! PK Dick would have had layer upon layer of confusion and complication to drive a protagonist to such a point. It appears so out of the blue in Ex Machina, I said to sit there and think: "Now why the *#$* did he do that?" And then, a split second later: "Oh, a 'questioning reality' moment. Huh? Wha" Where did that come from! Garbage!" More reason to build up my growing frustration with the movie.

And just for the record, can someone tell me what Ava or Eva or whatever her name was, I forgot now, what Ava's emotion was upon seeing the real world? What her reaction and what it suggested as an outcome was? For the life of me, all I can remember is the same dumb blank stare she had for most of the movie. I do remember some women behind me chortling and saying "that's it?"

A writer with any sense of subtlety or cleverness could have infused so much meaning and suggestion into that look. Or give me something. What if some passerby bumped into Ava? How she reacted could have sent a chill up your spine with suggestion of things to come. Garbage. It wasn't even shot well! The final shot of the movie. They couldn't have taken it outdoors to a real street to get some sense of scale and impact? I remember it being a artsy reflection shot in a window with a couple people meandering by. They couldn't afford a crane shot for at least the parting shot? Jesus.

Thank god I went to IMDB to read the top rated reviews that take the film apart for the lazy, sloppy picture it is. 78 percent rating there, strangely the same rating Metacrtic gave it 78. Rotten Tomatoes is the lone rhino with its high marks.

 

Jesus indeed!

 

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No, she behaved like a sociopath. She killed Caleb with no apparent regret, an innocent, so that she could have her choice of partners without the nerd holding her back.

 

I agree for me that moment didn't work. It didn't have the proper set up in my mind and the pay off was a bit weak. It would work better in something like Do Andriod Dream of Electric Sheep rather tha. The way it was stt up here and it also worked better IMHO in the TZ.

As far as the ending shots I'm of a mixed mind on that--doing that approach would have been more cliched IMHO and it worked because her primary focus were the people and that laser focus was on the, crossing the street and trying to deduce who they were by what they did.

 

Or at least invite Austin Powers along!

 

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indeed. She was her "father's" child. Not an innocent but her motive for doing what she did was basic "human" survival in that regard. The irony was that she became both the next step AND uniquely human at the same time in a bad way. [SPOILER/]