Having IGD also damages the grooves?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by eirismania, Jul 1, 2015.

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  1. eirismania

    eirismania Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    I've been wondering about this for a while. As far as I understand, every turntable-cartridge combination will have some level of inner groove distortion (IGD), as this is inherit to the media. Some, of course, handle it better than others and thus it will be unnoticeable in all records but the very difficult to track, and I suppose with very high end gear you will track almost anything.

    Now, my question is, whenever you get noticeable distortion towards the end of the side, and lets say this is in a new record to exclude any prior damage, does this mean you are also damaging the groove? Does distortion always imply mistracking and thus groove damage? I've read many threads about "difficult records to track", and "IGD tests", so to me this implies that most people will always have problems with these, thus damaging it.

    I've bought a lot of new records and most of them have some IGD towards the end (most of the times bearable), so I still wonder if I am damaging them by using rather inexpensive equipment. I have a Rega RP1 with a Bias 2, and I've read everywhere that to get rid of IGD you just need to buy this and that cartridge. I can live with some IGD (eventually I will upgrade and reduce it further) as long as I know that the records are not being damaged. Can anybody shed some light on this? Thanks in advance!
     
  2. Seancito

    Seancito Forum Resident

    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    I had the same table at one point (Rega P1), which I purchased about 7 years back. I replaced the stock Ortofon cartridge it came with. I experimented with different carts, and some tracked better than others. I really liked the Denon Dl-110 on that table, and I also used a Sumiko Pearl cartridge as well. You don't have too many options, since you are limited with adjustments on the table, but there are plenty that could work. I have some records, new and old, that have some IGD. Some are bad pressings, and some are beat up, but also different carts will track better. It's a great table, and you need to enjoy it for what it is.
     
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  3. floweringtoilet

    floweringtoilet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Warren, RI, USA
    Yes, IGD can also damage the record itself, in effect making the distortion permanent and non-system dependent.
     
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  4. eirismania

    eirismania Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    But when you say "can damage the record", what is the factor here? The issue is not misalignment as I understand misalignment will be heard across the whole record.
     
  5. floweringtoilet

    floweringtoilet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Warren, RI, USA
    Well, if your cartridge is misaligned in such a way that it causes distortion throughout the entire record, then the whole record will be getting damaged, not just the inner grooves. But the issue could be any number of things, not limited to misalignment; too little tracking force, using a worn stylus, a bad suspension, using a cartridge that is simply not capable of tracking inner grooves, etc. All these things can cause IGD and damage. So there is no one factor, but the bottom line is that if you are hearing IGD, you are also causing damage to the record.
     
  6. Antares

    Antares Forum Resident

    Location:
    Flanders
    Yes, considering the price of new records today, it makes sense to invest in a better stylus to avoid premature wear. A lot of new vinyl is mastered/cut with little regard for basic cartridges like your Bias2 and the better the stylus tip quality, the less IGD you will experience (even on a budget turntable).
     
  7. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    IGD is mistracking, the needle will loose contact with the outer groove wall. So rather then following the groove the needle will ride up on the inner groove wall. At the same time if the needle is prone to 'pinch-effect', the distortion will get worse, as I see it.
    It´s a good idea I think to avoid this, both for the ears and the record.
     
  8. eirismania

    eirismania Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    OK, understood. It makes sense. But what doesn't make sense is that a companies like Rega will sell you a turntable that will damage your records whatever you do... I suppose I will just have to invest in a new cartridge, sooner rather than later.
     
  9. DaveyF

    DaveyF Forum Resident

    Location:
    La Jolla, Calif
    Agree with all of that ( particularly a worn stylus), except I'm not sure that a worn suspension will lead to groove damage. It will definitely lead to the cart sounding worse than when new...or less worn. Do you have any way of showing us how a worn/bad suspension will lead to groove damage?
     
  10. eirismania

    eirismania Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Cartridge is not misaligned as I've tripled checked it. It's fairly new (less than 5 months), I clean it regularly (it was actually worse when it was new. sound has improved after breaking it in) and I am using almost 2 grams of VTF. At the recommended of 1,75 there is more IGD. I would be surprised if it it's a bad suspension as this would be obvious everywhere, I think? I am getting very nice sound on most records, so I don't think that's the case. My problem is only on the inner grooves.

    From all the forums I've read, I understand this is quite a normal thing on many cartridges: A budget cartridge is just not capable of tracking properly the inner grooves. What makes me "angry" is that "audiophile" companies put these type of cartridges on their products without telling you that basically you are going to damage your records. Or is this not what's happening?
     
  11. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

  12. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    As others have mentioned, IGD is evidence of mistracking and mistracking can cause permanent damage to the record if it is severe enough. However, I have doubts that IGD will do permanent damage. I have bought a lot of used records. Most of which, were probably played on less than stellar gear. Those records that have groove damage tend to have such damage throughout the record, not just the inner grooves. This suggests to me that the increase in mistracking for inner grooves IS NOT a common source of permanent damage.

    Also, have you checked to see that your cartridge is properly aligned and adjustments, such as tracking force are correct? The tighter turns that the groove takes for the inner part of the record puts a premium on proper setup for those sections of the record. If you can find someone who can do a proper and sophisticated job of aligning the cartridge, it might be possible to optimize the alignment for playing inner grooves (move the "null point" in the alignment (where tangency error is zero) further toward the inner grooves).

    Certainly, it would be ideal to go with a better cartridge and/or a better tonearm, but, I would not rush and do this at the expense of having to settle on a small improvement. Minor IGD will not do permanent damage. I don't often hear IGD myself. I heard it consistently on a friend's first analogue setup. He bought the cheapest Project turntable (with the intention of quickly upgrading) and put a totally inappropriate cartridge on the table (Ortofon Per Winfield). This was a $3,000 cartridge on a $200 table. I suspect that the sloppy bearings in the arm and poor control of vibration made minor inner groove distoration something I frequently heard on his setup. But, after he bought a better setup, the IGD disappeared and none of his records were damaged.
     
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  13. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    You need to step back here. Just because someone out there in internet-land says IGD = damage does not make it so. IGD is one thing, physically damaging grooves because of your system is another. IGD distortion means your particular set up cannot accurately track the information that exists in the grooves - thats all. IGD is not inherent to a record. Damage is cause by a stylus that is worn, tracking to heavy or too light, the wrong size or shape (cut) or a cartridge lacking good compliance, and so on. IGD can be reduced to insignificance. What people sometimes mistake for IGD is really just the lesser fidelity common to having music information contained into the lesser space. A good engineer can compensates for this somewhat when cutting the lacquer.

    You may need to experiment with cartridges. Like many such things, you get what you pay for.
     
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  14. eirismania

    eirismania Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Yes, I've read this thread already and it didn't really answer my question. What is a cheap elliptical diamond stylus exactly? As far as I know, most styluses are of the elliptical kind. Yes, there are many that specifically say they are micro line or nude, like the AT440, but if Steve is saying that this is the only kind of stylus you can use on records without damaging them, then most records bought in the 60's, 70s and 80's would be completely damaged, which is not the case.
     
  15. eirismania

    eirismania Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    That is reassuring. As I've said earlier, I am not incredibly bothered about the IGD I am getting at the moment, as I will eventually upgrade, which will hopefully put a stop to it. What does bother me is the idea that I can be damaging the records permanently. I really dont know what else I can do in terms of setup. My tonearm doesnt allow for many adjustments though. I've used both the Stevenson and Baerwald protractors, I have the Shure gauge and I've checked all the parameters time and time again. And I had the same issue with my previous cart (it was the OM5e, and the IGD was even worse).
     
  16. eirismania

    eirismania Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Ok, so you are saying that what I might be listening to is just a loss in quality and doesn't imply damage, and that this can be dealt with by throwing money at it, etc.
     
  17. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    As A whole it´s very hard to be sure what is happaning. One can hear mistracking more easily in some freq ranges. Often sharp S-sounds or Shh-sounds which can be very hard to track. The effect will be that the sounds are rather unfocused and are spreading between the speakers, as what is lateral information suddenly also become vertical information. As far as damage goes, who really know.
     
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  18. Captain Wiggette

    Captain Wiggette Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle
    Well, records do take some time to become damaged, it's not like a 1-play thing generally. So you'll find the more damaged stuff are the records that have been played a fair amount. The records that have been played a LOT have so much wear whatever damage was to the high frequency stuff is probably all worn away because all the highs are gone by that point.

    In my experience, I haven't really heard too many records with distorted highs that appear to be from wear (I'm (well, was) using an AT440MLa that tracks like crazy) that are confined to the inner portion of the record. I seem to find that distorted highs/sibilance on a used record is pretty uniform across the record, indicating that the damage is not confined to just the inner grooves.

    But having bought and listened to a lot of used records, damage to the highs from mistracking problems is NOT something to scoff at, so I think getting a cartridge and needle that tracks as cleanly as possible is a good idea. You can see the damage from mistracking quite easily under a microscope in the high frequency excursions, for example you can see the damage here:

    http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums...6239848_1564669171916487528_n_zpsgjpvsd7g.jpg
    [​IMG]

    And while we're talking about protecting the grooves and the record, ALWAYS use the tonearm lever or cueing mechanism and always try to drop in between songs or ideally only at the beginning of the record (the lead-in groove), here's what the lead-in groove area looks like and the big scratches driven into the record by someone slamming a needle down (and a bunch of scuffs, too, but that's different):
    http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums...6269788_1339866715397642866_n_zpspolhyvit.jpg
    [​IMG]

    It's amazing, really, that records even sound decent, let along as good as they do, given the insane physics involved and the rudimentary principles upon which it is all based.
     
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  19. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Money helps but is not always crucial. There are a lot of turntable tweaks that can help reduce the effects of a lesser/cheaper cartridges ability to track the inner grooves. And there may be something in the system itself with a property or tendency to accentuate distortion. I have switched things like speaker models and even speaker wires (from copper to silver for example) which affected distortion or at least perceptions of distortion. Welcome to the audiophile world.
     
  20. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    I hope we can all agree a "needle" is a stylus! A needle is found on an old grammophone and on sewing machines!
     
  21. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Inner groove distortion is the result of mistracking, and does cause groove damage to varying degrees in my opinion. One of the most common forms of IGD is "pinch effect". The Pinch effect is a common occurrence but bot often understood. The pinch effect is just one cause of IGD, among other causes, misalignment, tone arm problems, groove wear, poorly mastered record, worn stylus, contamination in the groove (dirt) insufficient vertical tracking force, loss of stylus to groove contact. (I may have missed a few)

    I'd like to discuss briefly the pinch effect. Pinch effect is caused by the vertical motion of the stylus in a mono groove. (or the mono component in a stereo groove) The stereo portion of the groove, or "difference signal" causes the stylus to move vertically and horizontally. Because the stereo signal causes the stylus to move vertically in the groove, the pinch effect isn't so much an issue for the stereo component. For example a background vocal panned hard right would be easier to track, since the stylus must move vertically anyway to track it, and reproduce it.

    Let's say the same background vocal is also found on another mix centered in the stereo field. The groove will be cut purely horizontally for just the vocal part, as this would be the analogue of the master. The reproducing stylus should easily track the horizontally cut groove, so we would think, but that's not what actually happens.

    The inner groove geometry becomes very crowded, the acceleration rate of the stylus greatly increased, thus more difficult to track. To complicate that, the reproducing stylus doesn't normally resemble the cutting stylus, therefore mistracks the groove. The conical stylus deviates the most, the ellipticals a closer match, hyperelliptical better yet, and finally the Shibata and line contact types most closely resemble the cutting stylus.

    The horizontally cut groove is not of uniform width. (doesn't matter that it is a monaural record or a stereo record with the monaural component or the center stage presentation) This critical point is mostly misunderstood. As the modulated monaural groove sweeps from peak to peak (side to side) the groove narrows and widens. It is this narrowing part that causes the stylus to lift up, or squeeze it or pinch it upward. (conical styli to the greatest degree) There is no vertical cut in a monaural groove, so there should be no vertical motion of the stylus. But there is vertical motion. This is "pinch effect". The vertical rise of the stylus is reproduced as harmonic distortion. The stylus doesn't necessarily lose contact with the groove, it simply moves upward vertically in the mono groove. Pinch effect can be called "mistracking" or "IGD", because both are often the result of pinch effect. (pinch effect is arguably the most common cause of IGD) The lateral groove forces the stylus to move vertically. It has no other way to go.

    Many Hi fi enthusiasts may have once owned monaural record players. (or collect them) The mass produced vintage monaural ceramic cartridges typically had almost zero vertical compliance. It is no wonder the pinch effect just hacked off the groove. The stylus had no other way to go but up, but non-compliance prevented that, so the stylus just bulldozed its way through. For this reason, many, many vintage jazz recordings have been heavily damaged, even those that appear visually clean. The better monaural cartridges did allow for some vertical compliance, but no electrical output from the vertical motion.

    I hope this is helpful. for more on pinch effect, here is some useful info: https://books.google.com/books?id=O9H8BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=pinch effect distortion record groove&source=bl&ots=BEiua5xAI1&sig=-0r5iOPRVKaGEoMJzYASVCr3NIc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AruVVZ-qGcScyATQkLuQDw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=pinch effect distortion record groove&f=false
    Steve VK
     
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  22. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Great stuff Fringe, educational as always.
    Glad Im not int Jazz records. Thats a bugger .
     
  23. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    I think 'pinch-effect' plays a part of IGD, but not purely 'pinch-effect' as it has rather low harmonic distortion as such. The IGD is a rather uncontrolled vertical motion that also involves the contact point at grooves to become out of phase. Another contributing factor is the arm´s offset angle which draws the stulus directly to the pivot, instead of following the groove. So several parameters are at play, also stylus/vinyl friction, but a cut with a very sharp side radius will make the tracking much easier besides the offset that is still there.
     
  24. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    I think it would be helpful if you listed some of the new records that you are playing where you hear inner groove distortion. One artifact of the vinyl revival is that many albums appearing on CD are being transferred to vinyl. Since the CD came along album lengths increased significantly because CDs could handle about 78 minutes. In contrast about 18 minutes an LP side for louder pop material (36 minutes total) are preferable limits. In addition with the loudness wars the average loudness level is higher (dynamic range restriction). Those two factors mean that there can be more distortion in trying to play the record because of the way the grooves are cut to accommodate that.

    As others noted, a loss of some fidelity at the end is not a sign of outright mistracking. That is a very distinctive very distorted sound, not a mild loss of stereo separation, high frequencies etc. I would guess that it is just the elliptical cartridge that you are hearing. The other possibility is that the cartridge-tonearm combo is not optimal for the table. I assume you tested resonance point and tracking ability on a test record? Your phono stage may also have a low overhead capacity which accentuates distortion and record tics.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
  25. eirismania

    eirismania Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Yes, I understand that. Although a couple of these new records I have are new productions (Motorama - Poverty, which actually is quite a short record, and Sigur Ros - Agaetis Byrjun), most of the ones I have are old, like Yo la tengo - Extra painful, Ramones S/T, ELP - Brain salad surgery or My Bloody Valentine - Loveless. Yes, some of them are noisy and not exactly audiophile. But I also have used records that sound fantastic until you get to the last song. As I've said before, the sound I am getting is for the most part pretty good. It is only at the inner grooves that I notice a decrease in quality, and most of the times it's not a deal breaker. It might be what Raunchnroll said, just a reduce in quality due to the format and I am just being paranoid.

    What I am experiencing is mainly the vocals getting a bit fuzzy, what I would describe as distortion. If you compare it to the CD, the vocals are definitely not as clear. I have heard proper mistracking and it is not as bad as that, but there is definitely a loss in quality that only happens on the inner grooves. Once again, my understanding was that this is always the case to some measure, but what I don't want is to keep playing the records this way if I am damaging them.

    I dont have a test record. Can you recommend one? Also, one of the things I did wonder about was the phono stage. I use the one of my amp, an Arcam A65+. I know it's not the best, but I've read it's not too bad either. And again, I think I would listen to this across the board if it were a problem with the preamp.
     
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