Having IGD also damages the grooves?

The cure is to use a microridge stylus, it will take care of most differences in sound that has to do with a slight mistracking/pinch-effect. Several parameters are better with a MR, like normally lower eff tip mass, polishing, a very sharp radius and closer resembling the cutting needle. An MR stylus is always the way to go IMO.

Of course other parameters also effect, like a very good arm damping, correct azimuth, high enough VTF, correct VTA, high enough AS, etc

 

Speaking of test records, where mistracking/distortion is purposely induced on some tests, they clearly get damaged after about 50 plays or so.

Round 2008, when I started buying new records again and thought I had to update my cartridge to something newer, I spent a couple of years with an Ortofon 2M Red (which is similar in specification to a Rega Bias 2). Regardless of what I (and many others from reading the forums) tried with setup, it would not track a hot sibilant to save its life and some end of sides could get positively grating with it. Like I said previously, many new releases/reissues are cut too hot for budget cartridges like these. Some of the records I used often to test setup tweaks during that time were definitely damaged in those offending spots. My advice is to change it sooner, rather than later eirismania and chalk it up to experience.

 

OK you are not experiencing outright mistracking. Slight damage might occur if you play those records a lot (over 50-75 times). Occasional play won't make any noticeable difference. There is either existing slight damage to the used records cited or they are cut a bit too hot for ellipticals. Dirt or grit in the groove can also affect playback more in the inner groove. Make sure records are clean (the stylus should have very little material on it after playing the side).

I have the Hi FI News Test Record but there are others also available at the usual audio websites.

Low phono stage Overload Margins do not affect playback continually. They only matter when the cartridge transmits a hot signal as in hitting a scratch or hot transient. A good phono stage can handle a very short fast surge, but cheaper ones often distort the signal more. That being said I looked up the Arcam 19 and it had decent overload margin specs. So that is Not likely to be a major problem here.

Bottom line: you will need to get a line contact or similar cartridge if you are this bothered by inner groove fidelity losses. But get a test record too so that you can verify basic setup parameters are ok.

 

... and for a quick and low cost solution to the problem get a Nagaoka MP110. It's a fine tracker and will not damage your records. On top of that it also offers good quality of sound.

 

What you describe - a bit lesser fidelity, mainly in the vocals, on the last track, is not uncommon when playing records on lower to moderate range turntable/cartridge/stylus set ups. Think of it this way: the same amount of music information (one rotation of a record, almost two seconds) exists in the outer grooves as in the innermost grooves. Those inner grooves are twice as crowded with information. The edge of the stylus has to track or follow literally twice as much as it does playing the larger diameter grooves. Its a physics/mechanics issue; inertia, velocity, 'compliancy' of the stylus/cantilever (as its side to side motion speeds up), the radii of the stylus in relation to the increasing information its passing over (the groove wall). Thats why members here are saying the way to reduce this is probably going to be by upgrading or at least switching/trying/changing components. Thats presuming your set up is good: turntable isolated or dampened, is level, everything adjusted right, records are clean, etc.

 

If a micro-ridge stylus is cost prohibitive a cost effective suggestion is a 0.2 x 0.7 mil elliptical, such as the very affordable Shure M97XE, which a non-defective example tracks without sibilance or IGD. Some folks are saying the M-97 rolls off the high freqs too much, and will liven up with a Jico replacement stylus. I really like the vintage Shure M-95 hyperelliptical, (parabolic elliptical) but may be expensive with the original stylus. The Shure M-91ED can be considered, only with an unworn original stylus. The M-91ED is a warmish cartridge but does have a sweet, detailed top end. The generic replacement N-91 for the M-91ED is not good enough to track the inner groove, even though advertised to be 0.2 x .07 mil. Do not buy a vintage Shure with a generic replacement stylus.

People have said nice things about Nagoka and Audio Technica!

 

But the Shure M97XE is not a 0.2 x 0.7 needle, it´s just a bonded pseudoelliptical, and it´s not good with IGD, IME. I know what the spec say, but they are wrong.

 

Thanks to everyone for their input. I suppose I can conclude that the IGD I am getting is not damaging my records to the point I have to stop listening to them, but at the same time I should think of upgrading soon. I would prefer to stay with Rega mainly because I don't want to start worrying about VTA. The Exact might be a bit too expensive, but I can definitely do the Elys 2 in the next months. Anyone had any experience with it? Will I see a difference? Or this money down the drain? The other thing is I really don't like a bright sound, and I understand the AT cartridges are a bit on the bright side. What about the Nagaoka?

 

Me, I wouldn´t choose anything but an MR, but that is me.

 

The Nagaoka is not a bright cart, rather it offers a rather warm sound although not exactly mild mannered. Its quite lively I would say, just without the top end harshness of many other budget designs. Anyway, I really do think you should get yourself a cart with good tracking abilities ASAP. I've experienced the exact problems you're having in the past and I must say that playing virtually any album from start to end with no tracking issues should be rather basic! I know it's not, but the MP110 is one cart at a low cost that will allow you to sit back and enjoy the music.

 

I use the Elys and Exact in my Rega's. I like them. The Exact is much better because of the fine line stylus. I really don't have any issues with IGD. Neither are known to be bright, mine aren't. The Elys, on some records, sometimes still has a little last-track degradation (mild distortion) which doesn't occur using the Exact. I use the Elys because a) it goes right on the Rega without fuss, b) sounds very good, and c) is fine for 7" singles and playing LPs while I'm inside doing chores.
Some forum members here say you can get a better tracking / sounding cartridge than the Elys for the money.

Using my Elys, some records: the last track has lesser fidelity than the first track, but on other LPs, theres barely any detectable difference from first to last track. But thats affected by the engineer who cut the lacquers, the quality of vinyl, length of the music on one side, and of course prior use or wear. Its one of the technical limitations of vinyl we all deal or live with.

Also, regarding damage, I still have records from the early 70's I've played hundreds of times on various set ups. I was always pretty careful to handle them right, keep them clean etc. Despite the dubious cartridges that have tracked their grooves, most of them sound crisp and fine on my current set up even against a barely played copy. Vinyl remember is a very tough durable substance. It scratches easily, but is otherwise pretty tough. I have 45's on vinyl that were clearly heavily played (even on juke boxes and other harsh systems) yet they still sound great and play without audible 'damage' (crackling, garbled / distorted / damaged vocals etc.) I highly doubt you're damaging your records just because you hear some IGD.

 

Thanks, I will definitely have a look at other cartridges, not only the Rega's. The Nagaoka sounds promising and the price is also very tempting, especially if it will cure my problem. And I suppose fiddling with the VTA if I go third party is not the end of the world. Another possibility is that I have a "momentary lapse of reason" and upgrade to the RP6, with the Exact. But I doubt I will do this in the end... wallet has taken a dent this year buying too many records.

Cheers everybody!

 

I get no audible IGD with my modded SL1200MKII/AT150MLX combo. On a few occasions I've even got better fidelity on the inner grooves which puzzles me.

 

That's strange, mine was a great tracker! I have read that experiences vary widely with the M-97XE, some people reporting massive sibilance and IGD. (quality issues) I was very happy with the one I had, just sold it on a Dual 1218, and it sounds sweeter than anything with the M-97XE.

I did a few needle drops with the Shure. Maybe I'll upload one or two to demonstrate just how nice a good one sounds.

 

As I understand it, when introduced it had a 0.2 x 0.7 stylus, but that was a long time ago. For many years what I have seen it just has a pseudoelleptical bonded as most low end styli do.

 

So somebody please explain why I am getting hardly any IGD or lousy tracing of sibilants from my Denon DL-103 with it's conical stylus?

It tracks almost as well as the AT33/PTG/ll in my opinion and that is saying something.

Mind you I have had to go through some adjustments with it (mass loading, VTA adjustment due to brass plate shims, new counterweight) in order to make it sing, but it still doesn't track at all with any weirdness. Strange. I am happily confused.
Of course it's not just any conical - it's the Denon 103 - an over-engineered piece of brilliance!

 

It´s hard to say, easy music?

 

IGD is the main reason why I can't get into vinyl. BTW is there a turntable I can get under $200 that won't cause IGD or do I have to spend thousands on a halfway decent table? Getting a no IGD turntable/cart should not have to cost someone an arm and a leg.

 

You get what you pay for? I don't know really. I would think under $200 inc cartridge would be pushing it for IGD free playback.

 

Mostly the stylus causes IGD. Most of your investment should go to a line contact stylus, or Shibata, or hyper-elliptical (not just the usual elliptical) Sadly, the better styli perform better on a good turntable. At $200.00 for both turntable and cartridge, it's almost impossible to obtain perfectly clean vinyl play into the inner groove. In my opinion, anyone who wants to get the most out of vinyl needs to invest at least $500.00 and that is a stretch. I have been lucky to find at thrift stores a few nicer turntables, the Dual 701, a Kenwood KD-5070, Dual 1229 with a Shure M95 hyper-elliptical. All the turntables were in need of servicing. To buy a plug and play vintage piece, you need to prepare yourself to spend more, and your expectations will be met or exceeded. There is nothing like an unworn, well mastered record being played on a fine tuned turntable and stylus, it's a beautiful thing.

 

It's more the cartridge than the table, assuming it's at least a solid basic table+arm. The AT440MLa will get you way past IGD and sibilance issues. I swear by microline cartridges for that, because IGD and tracking problems drives me nuts as well. You should be able to pick up the 440 for <$200 and is well worth it. You do not have to spend thousands, but you do have to put some effort into it. Cleaning, IMO, is the most important thing after a basically good cartridge and table.

 

That's what I'm afraid of. Even getting halfway decent sound you have to spend half a grand and that still may or might not eliminate IGD.

 

So basically we can conclude that, if you care about sound, all of these entry level cartridges and TTs are a waste of money because you will never be happy. It's not like with speakers or amps were you can get decent sound with $500 then.

 

Maybe you haven't come across this thread yet:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...dges-cant-be-played-without-sibilance.255701/

You'll see that this problem still exists with more expensive setups and you have to concentrate your efforts on the cartridge and more particularly the stylus first and foremost. There's two "normally" priced (< €200) options that always come back in this regard, which are the Shure M97XE with aftermarket Jico SAS stylus and the Audio Technica AT440MLa. Both use so-called MicroRidge/MicroLine styli (which have a very narrow side profile radius) and, coming from what you have now, will literally drop your jaw as to how clear loud cut end-of-sides can sound. I don't know where you can buy the Jico SAS in Europe, so bar private import the AT is the first choice here. Since nothing is ever easy, the AT is bright sounding unless you take care of electrical loading parameters (capacitance and impedance). Your Arcam phono stage has 100pF input capacitors which make it difficult to stay under AT's recommended 200pF overall (I don't know how much the Rega tonearm wiring and phono leads will add exactly, but it's likely more than 100pF). If you find the sound too bright, you can add parallel resistors externally.

 

Yes, this is why I don't think I will go for the AT, as I don't like the bright sound. I will have a look at the Shure option with the Jico, or as I said earlier, invest a lot more money than I should into this and get something much more high end.