Star Trek TNG-A Die Hard TOS Fan First View & Perspective

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Jeffczar, Jul 3, 2015.

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  1. Jeffczar

    Jeffczar Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Been a life long die hard fan of the original series and have always resisted the idea of anything even coming close to that series in terms of story depth, character depth, writing, and its unique ability to examine the human condition through story. I recently however decided after many years of resistance to give TNG a watch so I am starting with episode 1 and working my way through. I am half way through the first season and have a few early observations. First, the way Picards part was cast and written was brilliant. In NO way does he invite any comparison to Kirk. I say brilliant because if the captain was written in a similar fashion to the original, it could never compare and would invite endless comparisons. Picard is so different than Kirk that you accept his style and can appreciate the traits he brings to the role. You CAN like both of them without necessarily comparing all the time. As I said a very smart choice. Second, the part of Riker is quite well done and very well played. The rest of the cast I do not see as very strong, of course I am early in this journey. The counsellor in particular I think is just awful. And children on the enterprise? I can do without it. Now a few negatives. It isn't filmed as well visually. Yes the special effects are better but I am referring to the use of lighting and camera techniques that TOS elevated to almost an art from. It uses a lot of very flat lighting and at times looks like a soap opera. TOS made incredible dramatic use of very limited sets by beautiful use of color and lighting. Finally, my last concern and perhaps the most important is the depth of writing. Do the stories and types of statements each episode makes compare to the original or is it just dumbed down sci-fi. Well, early on I can say that 2 episodes I have seen are worthy of TOS legacy. "Encounter at Farpoint" and "Hide and Q". Hide and Q borrows heavily conceptually from the TOS episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before". The rest so far have been enjoyable but pretty average. I do realize that Seasons 3-6 are considered the best so I will reserve judgement until I finish watching all of the series. I have noticed though in all the episodes that there is a lot of borrowing of bits and pieces of story lines and concepts from original series episodes, A LOT. I'm not saying this as a criticism, actually the opposite. I am looking forward to viewing the entire series after all these years. Any fans of both shows, I would be interested in hearing if your observations match what I have seen so far and what I have to look forward to in the upcoming seasons. Nothing will replace TOS in my book but the involvement of Roddenberry, David Gerrold, and Robert Justman in launching the show finally peaked my interest in opening up my heart to new treks so to speak. Is there a "City on the edge of Forever", "Metamorphesis", "Return Of The Archons", "A taste of Armageddon" or "The Tholian Web" in there somewhere? I'm on the trek to find out !
     
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  2. boyjohn

    boyjohn Senior Member

    are you watching the remastered versions? they look a million times better than the original dvds.

    season 3 is where it really gels
     
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  3. Jeffczar

    Jeffczar Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Actually no but I ordered them and should have them in time for season 2 and onward. Same can be said of TOS, the remasters really clean up those exterior shots that they had so much trouble filming in the 60s. I have read universally that season 3 is when it gets good which I find interesting because that's when all the old guard split. I read that Roddenberry at that point was really suffering from a life of alcoholism and was nearly impossible. Will be interesting to see how devoted the new writers were to the original concept.
     
  4. boyjohn

    boyjohn Senior Member

    They went back and rescanned all the camera negatives for the remastered version, it truly looks stunning. The writing really takes a step up in season 3, once Michael Piller came aboard. They started doing more character development and tried to get away from "monster of the week" shows.
     
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  5. Dr. Pepper

    Dr. Pepper What, me worry?

    I think even many episodes in season two are far superior to anything in season one. About half way through season two, the writing takes a leap forward. Actually mid first season writing takes a nice jump in quality as well. Have you made it to the Big Goodbye or Datalore yet?
     
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  6. Jeffczar

    Jeffczar Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Big goodbye was good but again borrowing heavily from TOS episodes Shore Leave and Piece Of The Action. Enjoyable episode though.
     
  7. cdash99

    cdash99 Senior Member

    Location:
    Mass
    Stick with it. As others have said it took a while for the characters to develop. This pattern repeats itself in DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise, all of which are worth your time.
     
  8. PaulKTF

    PaulKTF Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I'll take (most) TNG episodes over (most) TOS episodes any day of the week.
     
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  9. Deesky

    Deesky Forum Resident

    For the first season plus some of two, it's tough to make judgments about strong characters, though you have identified the two that definitely fall into the strong category. Joining that category will be Geordi, Worf, Data and in minor roles, Guinan, Barclay and chief O'Brien.

    Yeah, pretty much both as an actor and the "I'm sensing something" shtick that she is always saddled with. However, she becomes more relaxed and charismatic/charming over the years and is, in fact, a fan favorite.

    The other female lead character is Dr Crusher, whom I always found a bit 'plastic' and also not a great actor, but again, she does have her supporters.

    LOL, yeah, join the infamous 'I hate Wesley Crusher' brigade! :)

    I disagree totally on that one. TOS era lighting was a product of its times. I'd always wondered how the Captain standing in a well lit room could always manage to find a shadow so that most of this face shaded except for the area around the eyes!

    Also the color palette used was very basic with lots of bright primary colors and weird color gradients on naked walls and corridors. It's definitely a visual aesthetic, but I wouldn't call it better necessarily.

    For superior lighting and set design (and scripts), check out Deep Space 9.
    Well, I'm sorry to say, but I thought that 90% if not more of TOS scripts were extremely poor to plain bad. What elevates them is the chemistry/dynamic between Kirk, Bones, Spock (and Scotty).

    IMO, the script quality between the two series has a reverse relationship. Compared to season 2 & 3, TOS season 1 was quite a bit better. TNG OTOH had quite poor seasons 1 & 2, but then it got much, much better, until finally tailing off again in season 7.
     
  10. Jeffczar

    Jeffczar Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I really don't want to turn the thread into one vs the other kind of battle. As I've found with music, age has a lot to do with this type of argument. If you're under 40, I'm sure that TNG will be your favorite and vice versa. That's something you learn to just accept when you get late into your 40s. It's not good or bad, it just IS. I'm just trying to enjoy them both for their own strengths. I will stand on one point though, trek in its original series form wasn't so much about science fiction as about probing and questioning almost every aspect of the human condition. As pure science fiction by today's standards I'm sure a lot of things are more exiting and action packed but that kind of misses the point of the original Trek. It was more of a vehicle to make a greater point. So I can't agree that the original stories were thin by any stretch. Not science fiction, or science-action adventure as we know it today, sure, but certainly not shallow. One good example is the TOS episode of Metamorphesis. It reminds me of a philosophy class I had in college where we were challenged by the professor for weeks to quantify, discuss, and write on the meaning of love. Whatever anyone wrote or said the professor would counter and destroy the argument. That episode defines that argument in the most articulate and understandable way I think I've ever seen or read. It isn't full of action, chases, or battles. It really isn't even science fiction. But that is the essence of what the original trek was all about. I'm almost through season 1 and have yet to see an episode of TNG that doesn't borrow a lot of story elements from some original episode so I think they must have been pretty good. Again, I'm not trashing one over the other. I'm actually enjoying what I've seen so far and looking forward to the better seasons. Hoping to see more of that story depth that has popped up in some of the episodes a little more.
     
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  11. Deesky

    Deesky Forum Resident

    I'm over 40 and I loved TOS as a kid and I still get a kick out of the principal characters, but I cannot say the same about the actual plots. Absolutely, there are some gems that work well to this day, I'm not denying that, but there were a heck of a lot more that just make me cringe today (just like much of The Twilight Zone).
     
  12. Jeffczar

    Jeffczar Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Interesting you would mention the twilight zone as much of the same writing style is used. I would say your tastes simply lean a different direction than mine. I will concede that are some cringe inducing episodes for sure. Children Shall Lead, Way To Eden, Platos Stepchildren, Catspaw, Wolf In The Fold, Return To Tomorrow, Lights Of Zetar, Charlie X, Spocks Brain. I'm not saying they were all great deep pieces of writing ! For my taste about 60 percent were good to great, 20 percent OK, and 20 percent if I never saw again it would be fine. Not a terrible hit rate for sure, but that's just me.
     
  13. cdash99

    cdash99 Senior Member

    Location:
    Mass
    I won't spoil the details, but DS9 and Enterprise do some wonderful sequels/prequels to the Mirror Mirror episode. Moreover, the actors looked like they had a blast doing it.
     
  14. Jeffczar

    Jeffczar Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I heard those were pretty good. I think there was a TNG like that one as well. I would like to see those, fantastic episode and story with endless possibilities.
     
  15. DPM

    DPM Senior Member

    Location:
    Nevada, USA
    Wasn't there a writer's strike sometime during season 1 or season 2 of The Next Generation?
     
  16. Zeroninety

    Zeroninety Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Season 2, which led to a shortened season (22 episodes instead of 26), and the desperation move of digging up decade old scripts written for the aborted Star Trek: Phase II series. ("The Child," where Lt. Ilia's role is re-written for Troi).
     
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  17. floweringtoilet

    floweringtoilet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Warren, RI, USA
    As others have noted TNG takes a while to find it's voice, but once it does it becomes the equal of TOS. I don't want to post spoilers, but keep watching and you will be rewarded.
     
  18. Erik Tracy

    Erik Tracy Meet me at the Green Dragon for an ale

    Location:
    San Diego, CA, USA
    BBC America has mini-marathon showings of TNG.

    They are enjoyable and immersive.

    I must be a child of the 50's/60's for TV 'drama'and style of story telling - the TOS story lines are more....'engaging' (hahahaha)....more emotional.

    However, when TNG went to arcing storylines (eg the Borg), I was more involved in what the next episode would bring.

    Corbormite Maneuver, Balance of Terror, The Menagerie I & II....bang....
     
  19. Encuentro

    Encuentro Forum Resident

    In my opinion, TNG saved the best for last. The series finale, All Good Things, is TNG's best episode and is better than any of the TNG movies. I guess that's not really saying much considering that First Contact is the only good film in the TNG film series.
     
  20. new world man

    new world man Member

    Location:
    UK


    You thought Troi was awful???

    [​IMG]
     
  21. BrewDrinkRepeat

    BrewDrinkRepeat Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merchantville NJ
    I agree wholeheartedly: Troi was awful. Absolutely awful. Her character goes from merely annoying to Super Ultra Annoying very quickly, and based on what I've seen in interviews and whatnot I don't much care for Marina Sirtis either. I'll take infinite Wesley Crusher clones over Troi any day of the week. :eek:

    To the OP: stick with it through seasons 1 and 2, which were lukewarm at best. (There were plenty of moments, esp. in season one, that were positively cringe-worthy!) Season three is where the show really starts to take off, and four and five were amazing.

    I will disagree about the series finale being the best episode (in fact, I was pretty disappointed with it to be honest -- to me it felt pretty forced, and Patrick Stewart really over-acted his "grumpy, crotchety old man" persona in this one). My favorite, by no small margin, is "The Inner Light" (towards the end of season five) -- I won't spoil it for you, but it's such a magnificent piece of storytelling.
     
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  22. seed_drill

    seed_drill Senior Member

    Location:
    Tryon, NC, USA
    The worst was when she was able to "sense" something across the vacuum of space. At least make it based on pseudo-science, like brainwave reading, rather than space magic. We already got too much of that with Q.
     
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  23. greelywinger

    greelywinger Osmondia

    Location:
    Dayton, Ohio USA
    Definitely one of my top 5 TNG episodes.

    Darryl
     
  24. drasil

    drasil Former Resident

    Location:
    NYC
    I've long believed that the 'alt.wesley.crusher.die.die.die' attitude was less an honest critique than it was just one of the internet's earliest memes/viral ideas. it took off and persisted mostly out of petulance, not because it was grounded in truth.

    Wil Wheaton was a pretty good actor working with what was often very iffy writing. I don't think his performances on TNG are in any way worse than those of the other supporting actors, like Gates McFadden or Marina Sirtis.

    the absolute worst part about the anti-Wesley bandwagon is that it's made the adult Wil Wheaton into a snarky and kind of neurotic guy in the aftermath. he even touches on this in his book, in one of its more open moments, floating in the the chin-deep river of snark. (I kept wanting to say, 'stand by me, man! you were in one of the truly greatest coming of age films of all time... forget this gimmicky stuff and the fanatics who picked on you because they were jealous they didn't get to be the boy genius in the star trek reboot.')

    anyhow, I appreciate your fresh perspective, which I really believe is roughly how most would see the character of Wesley if they weren't also familiar with all the baggage now attached to it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2015
  25. Encuentro

    Encuentro Forum Resident

    I like Wesley. I like Troi. The only character in the series I'm not particularly fond of is Worf, and it's not that I don't like him. I'm just not particularly fond of Klingon centered stories in TNG or DS9. The only Klingon centered story I've ever enjoyed in the history of Trek is Undiscovered Country. Klingons in TNG and DS9 are, unfortunately, portrayed as obnoxious, boisterous barbarians. They're simply annoying. The Klingons in Undiscovered Country are portrayed as soft-spoken, articulate and noble.
     
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