Benefits of bi-amping?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by frimleygreener, Jul 5, 2015.

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  1. frimleygreener

    frimleygreener "It 'a'int why...it just is" Thread Starter

    Location:
    united kingdom
    Taking delivery of an Arcam Delta 290 power amp tomorrow....I understand what a power amp does(drives the speakers?)...but are there discernible benefits of bi-amping....if so,what?
     
  2. dividebytube

    dividebytube Forum Resident

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Provided your speakers are bi-ampable: you could run a separate amplifier for the tweeter/midrange and a separate one for the bass.

    Or have two stereo amplifiers, one for each channel as a "sort of monoblock". One channel of an amplifier drives the midrange/tweeter while the other channel drives the bass.

    My experiments with bi-amping: I once had a pair of Magnepan 1.6QR speakers that were bi-ampable. Running a big 250WPC Threshold S/500 with them and I got some good sound. But things really improved when I bi-amped them. I inserted - at line-level - a capacitor to roll off the bass frequencies for the tweeter amplifier, which was a 50WPC tube Yaqin. The bass panel was still run by the monster Threshold. It was a dramatic improvement in sound. I mean major jump in fidelity since the tweeter panel just seemed to open up with tubes.

    I did the same sort of thing but with no crossover for a pair of PSB towers - a push-pull tube amplifier to drive the two 6.5" woofers and a single-ended tube amplifier to drive the tweeter. It was only a minor improvement and generated a lot of heat, so I pulled the plug on that idea.
     
  3. Dougr33

    Dougr33 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Twin Cities, MN
    I think it make the most difference in a true 3-way speaker, where one amp drives the bass, and the other the midrange & tweeter. Less audible when it's only the tweeter being driven by one of the amps. Often said that benefit is the big amp carries the heavy load, allowing more delicate higher frequencies to be pampered by another, possible better amp(or allowing that amp to add the sweetness of tubes, without having it need to be big/$$$ enough to drive the whole speaker load.)
     
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  4. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Right on.
    Bi-amping a 3-way system is a big improvement in SQ, not so much for a two-way.
    The reason is that you can eliminate woofer distortion because it is audible only at high frequencies.
    In a 3-way, the woofer crossover usually cuts its output above 400Hz or so.
    In a 2-way system woofers are asked to play as high as 3.5Khz where the clipping becomes audible.
    My PSB tower are bi-amped and I never hear clipping, distortion or strain from the woofers, midrange or tweeters. Made a big improvement.
     
  5. gklainer

    gklainer Forum Resident

    I'm vertically bi-amping and I would recommend it. Vertical meaning I'm using the same exact amp (times 2) on each side as opposed to using two different amps. I think you will find many of the "experts" believe it is better to use like amps instead of a big solid state amp on the bottom and a warmer tube amp on the top. This is because it is difficult to match two amps. This would be called horizontal bi-amping. Essentially, you are doubling the power of the amp to you speakers since one amp is sending the stated WPC to the woofers and the same to the mid/tweeters. I should say I'm using it in a 3 way setup with B&W 804 speakers. It has definitely made an improvement to my ears. You will need two preamp outputs or you will need to split the output also.
     
  6. frimleygreener

    frimleygreener "It 'a'int why...it just is" Thread Starter

    Location:
    united kingdom
    I will use the delta 290 power amp with the delta 290 integrated...can I assume I could go "Vertical" with this pairing?
     
  7. eirismania

    eirismania Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    I have an Arcam A65+ and a P75+ driving my new pair of KEF R300. I've only used them in biamp, so I can't really say if there was a jump in SQ, but there was definitely a good jump when I initially did this with my old B&W 601 S3's. I've read that the big improvement comes when you use an external crossover for each amp, but I suppose this becomes more complicated and expensive.
     
  8. Tim 2

    Tim 2 MORE MUSIC PLEASE

    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Have bi-amped many times over the years and have found an improvement but very marginal. External crossovers should be used but now your adding another box and more interconnects, compromising the purity of the signal.
    One good amp will be an improvement over two lesser amps in most situations.
     
  9. frimleygreener

    frimleygreener "It 'a'int why...it just is" Thread Starter

    Location:
    united kingdom
    Surely by powering the speakers direct from the power amp,there would be a cleaner signal source?
     
  10. Twodawgzz

    Twodawgzz But why do you ask such questions...

    I've posted in many threads in the past...

    Bi-amping is the single best upgrade I've made to my system in over 35 years. Super clean highs & lows.

    Marchand Electronics XM26 (tube) active crossover;
    McIntosh MC225 (tubes) on top;
    Cary CAA 1 (solid state) on bottom;
    Altec 604e studio monitors.
     
  11. mongo

    mongo Senior Member

    I will echo a bit of what tmsorosk posted.
    Like active speakers one of the potential benefits of bi-amping is not so much power but the fact that the amps have to drive a more limited frequency range.
    Cost is another.
    For me it was a lot cheaper and especially a lot less hassle to buy another pair of identical mono-blocks than to sell my current amps and buy one or 2 more powerful amps.
    It does complicate things as I needed to get Y-XLRs, quad outlets etc.
    For me I wanted some more headroom & wasn't looking to bi-amping specifically to fix or improve what I had.
    I think it mostly depends on factors particular to the situation and the system.
     
  12. sublemon

    sublemon Forum Resident

    you really need to use an active crossover and remove the passive xovers from your speakers to effectively bi-amp. In any case I don;t think you really want to use two different amps for this, even an integrated and power of the same model. but ymmv of course.
     
  13. frimleygreener

    frimleygreener "It 'a'int why...it just is" Thread Starter

    Location:
    united kingdom
    So are we saying that there is no benefit to owning a power amp and it would add nothing to that provided by an integrated amp?
     
  14. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    disagree.
    my speakers have bi-amp capability- 1 set of terminals for the woofers, 1 set for the midrange/tweeter.
    each "set" has its own internal crossover.
    the woofer only sees frequencies up to 400Hz because of the internal crossover.
    the midrange/tweeter only sees frequencies above 400Hz because of the internal crossover.
    my woofer amp has 150 watts per channel and can drive the woofers all day long.
    my midrange tweeter amp (integrated amp) has 80 watts per channel and can drive the midrange/tweeters all day long.
    as long as each amp has identical gain, you can use higher power on the woofers. no external crossovers are needed- I never hear strain or distortion.
     
  15. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    no.
    you can bi-amp with an integrated amp and you will hear the benefits- if your integrated amp has "pre-outs" and your power amp has the same gain spec.
    Run the midrange / tweeter with the integrated amp speaker terminals.
    Feed the integrated amplifier pre-outs to the power amp.
    Connect the woofer terminals to the speaker terminals of the power amp.
    Enjoy.
     
  16. sublemon

    sublemon Forum Resident

    Well, you can try it of course. You could also, I think, flip a switch on the 290 integrated and disable the preamp functions, then you have 2 presumably identical power amps, which you could use with another preamp as monoblocks ("vertical" bi-amping I guess), it would be using one channel on each amp for one speaker, unless they have an option for bridging to mono. so you wouldn't be doubling the power but there could be some advantage in terms of the power supply usage on the amps I guess. I don't know enough about the design of that amp to say how great it will be doing that or using the integrated as the pre and one channle and the power amp as the other channel, but cant hurt to try it...
     
  17. sublemon

    sublemon Forum Resident

    well "horizontal" biamping won't do much for you without an active xover as far as I know. possible subtle advantage maybe. just read this:

    http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring
     
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  18. sublemon

    sublemon Forum Resident

    even when the speakers have separate binding posts (say 1 for woofer and 1 for tweeter on a 2-way), the crossovers are not bypassed.
     
  19. Captain Wiggette

    Captain Wiggette Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle
    Let's clarify that we're all talking about passive biamping or "fool's biamping" which is just using two pairs of amps and removing the jumpers on the speakers. Theoretically this might yield a marginal benefit, if any.

    However, ACTIVE biamping can be very beneficial if done properly and needed (if you're pushing high volumes especially, etc), but requires external crossovers BEFORE the amplifiers. This is generally found either only in the professional arena, the DIY arena, or with some very high-end speakers that are designed to be used with (and sold with) external crossovers like this, or also with active loudspeakers that contain their own amplifiers which case the speaker designer has control over amplifier selection (again much more common in the professional arena). In this case, you have the advantage of doing the crossover circuitry at line level, and then the amp is ONLY driving a specific driver or group of drivers, and not driving wasted power into a speaker-level crossover. It also allows selection of different amplifiers, for example a lower power but much more refined amplifier for the tweeter, and much more powerful amplifiers for the woofers. The TRUE separation of signals before the amplifier also isolates distortion/clipping from bass at loud volumes from making its way into the tweeter which both sounds bad and can be damaging. This is especially why this kind of system design can be common in large PA systems because you can push the volume really hard and it prevents distortion from polluting the highs as much and can keep things very clean. But this is not relevant to the OP's question, it sounds like he is just trying to hook up a couple pairs of amps in the passive biamping method, which won't hurt anything but also is not likely to be much of a change, but certainly worth trying out to see if there is any minor changes. It certainly looks cool.
     
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  20. gklainer

    gklainer Forum Resident

    Passive Bi-amping can make a nice difference. However, it will depend on the amps used, the type of speakers and whether it is done in vertical or horizontal mode. I'm sure you can find many articles like this one. http://audiophilereview.com/referen...ed-my-bowers-wilkins-800-series-diamonds.html
     
  21. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    100% nailed it.
     
  22. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    correct, and you do not want them to be. you want the woofer to be cut off above its crossover frequency so that distortion is inaudible.
    this leaves the other amp to drive the midrange/tweeters (in a 3-way) and it will never break a sweat.
     
  23. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Passive bi-amping provides a nice SQ benefit with speakers that are wired properly and is NOT "fool's bi-amping" so please get your facts straight.
    The woofer and midrange/ tweeter parts of the crossover circuit are separate. This is how it is with my PSB towers- two isolated circuits.

    The amp driving the woofers is not connected (at all) to the midrange/tweeter. I turn on that amp (only) and it sounds like a subwoofer (basically). Driving the woofers loudly into clipping will not be audible because the crossover on the woofer (low pass filter) cuts those frequencies. It will not be audible in the midrange / tweeter because that amp is not connected to them.

    I turn on the other amp (only) and all you hear is the midrange and tweeter. Two distinct circuits and the benefits of bi-amping are available and audible.

    There is lots of flexibility with active crossovers- I have an active system in my car with 8-active channels (2-sub, 2-midbass, 2-midrange and 2 tweeters). I can control the crossover frequencies, slopes and time alignment of each channel. It is much more flexible than passive crossovers. However, if I had passive crossovers in front of those individual drivers, I would still get many of the benefits of individual channels.
    The sub amp can clip all day long and it will not be audible through the sub or any of the other drivers.
    What is not understood about this?
     
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  24. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    no, he did not.
     
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  25. Twodawgzz

    Twodawgzz But why do you ask such questions...

    Exactly. Low frequencies sent to the amplifier of choice for the woofers. High frequencies sent to the amplifier of choice for the tweeters. A much cleaner, controllable sound, because you can also dial in the cutoffs for the high-pass and low-pass filters to your particular preference.
     
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