How do you audition a turntable?

Given the number of variables involved (including a proper setup), it seems damn near impossible to truly evaluate a turntable. This is even more true the higher one goes up in price.

Are we all primarily buying a turntable based on looks or have some of you figured out a decent methodology for isolating the turntable/arm from everything else for comparison purposes?

 

By listening if you can. To some degree it is always going to be a leap of faith but you can get a sense of silence and accuracy from a demo. With a rig as dialed in as yours, you will have to get it home to see if it does what you want with your situation.

 

Get it home... kinda my point. How can we really demo a turntable if it's in a system different from our own? What would one listen for to know if the turntable under audition is an improvement?

 

You might be over thinking it just a touch. If you listen to tables in a demo setting or at a friends house you can hear differences that come from the table and not from the rest of the system. To me the best tables sound like silence, they just don't get in the way of the source material and they are razor sharp in accuracy. Accuracy probably has more to do with the cart but you get my point. Looks and how much you are willing to pay are also big factors. Go to the big room of a audio shop, listen to the table they have set up and then make them plug that table into a lesser system.

I think tone arm shopping is for when you are very familiar with your table. When spending thousands of dollars on a table, I would leave the choice of arms to the designers of the table. Or choose the one they recommend.

Edit: I would also give headphones a listen. It can cut out some stuff in the chain and get real micro on the sound

 

What I do for speakers is develop a list of brutal recordings, that specifically test a variety of parameters, including IMD.

You can't do this with a table, so you have to develop some ideas about what you like based on design. Then you have to take it home and play a bunch of tough recordings, that bring out the worst in a tonearm, and see how the table assists the arm in keeping composure.

I walk the displays and feel the bearings. If one deck has bearing play, that is going to make the deck difficult to level, because it's orientation will change at speed vs. at rest.

You are right though, too many variables. My best take is to get a reasonable deck, and work out the cart/tonearm combo you want to live with, then take that along to another deck. I always pay attention to the opinions of those who live with multiple decks/carts. That has to be a plus.

I think you also have to wonder, when the noise introduced by the deck is below the ambient noise cut into the average record, what are you listening for? My sense is that the mechanics get congested, and this is often related to the electrical damping or loading or cart, but could also the deck/arm. A good solution seems to be arrived at through some mysterious coincidence and understanding, time, and experience.

 

In principle we can look at TT/arm/cartridge as contributing to frequency and amplitude modulations of the signals. Which is contibuting with what isn´t easy to know.

 

The only way to do it right is to find a dealer who might let you take one home at closing and for you to audition it in YOUR system with whatever cart you are going to use. For me, if it was a table under $1k I would not sweat it as there will be compromises, and if we are talking $500 or less I would just buy what seems right. If any of this is better than what one has, I guess that wouldn't matter.

I think that an under $500 the table I would just buy is a Project Debut Carbon DC. At slightly more it seems like the new Pioneer 1000 is the talk of the town. I don't think that anyone could go wrong with any of the Music Hall's, either. I also think the cart and phono stage are more important anyway.

If you are talking VPI money I would definitely want to hear it at home.

 

Yes, when I picked up my Pro-ject Xpression it sounded great at the store with B&W speakers. Forgot to ask what amp they were using. Brought it home and connected it to my totally different amp and speakers. Fortunately it sounds good.

 

In over 45 years of listening to LPs I don't think I've ever taken a turntable home for an audition before buying. I agree with the OP that given all the variables you have to do a lot of reading, buy what would seem to be in your general interest for sound type, then tweak from there to dial it in.

John K.

 

It's one of the hardest components to audition. I buy based on features, long term durability/company longevity and based on the opinions of some people I trust.

Going back to the features part you can usually get a glimpse of how much a company cares about their product based on simple things like speed accuracy, quietness, etc. Going from all that I've narrowed my next turntable down to two companies. I've heard one of them and it met all the criteria, I would feel comfortable buying the other blind. If I didn't have the selection criteria it would just be too much; there are so many high end turntables to chose from.

 

Brian,

Instead of asking this question, just tell Mr. Rotunda to have the Shindo family get started on your Player System.

 

I think sound quality is important, but realistically there are diminishing returns. Build quality, means of use, maintenance, cartridge compatibility, should also be factors. Simple things like dust covers could also be a consideration. Ideally I want something that is dependable, low maintenance, and easy to use that sounds great.

 

I buy a hugely expensive turntable then discover that I have neither arm nor cartridge . go buy arm and cartridge then discover that I should have a specialist table, go buy specialist table ,sound is not as good as that Pioneer I owned for 20 years and just sold on E bay, look up problem on forums , aahh, amp is at fault , buy new amp. discover new amp has no phono input , buy specialized phono amp. sound not good , look up problem on forums , discover that the cartridge I bought is the only one that will not work well with my new phono amp. buy new recommended cartridge , sound not good , look up problem on forums , discover that turntable is a bucket that has a hole in it!

 

I would say I primarily bought on features and performance based on research, reading reviews, talking to the dealer and manufacturer. And looks a too some extent but that was not a main consideration, though it is just as valid as any other criteria IMO. Fortunately I was able to get something that worked out well and I have been off the turntable upgrade treadmill for over a decade. Well, I added a second arm so I could play other cartridges, but the table it self continues to satisfy me.

 

Bring it home, mess with it until it sounds right, if you can't get it to sound right return it.

 

You are quite right Brian, there is no way to isolate each quality of a turntable. The platter mass, drive type, the suspension, materials used, natural resonances, arm mass, cartridge type and compliance, are all major factors, and then some... So it is the favorable matching of design and materials which we hope to achieve audio nirvana. Part of the intrigue of the turntable, and vinyl are all the variables that make it fun. A CD player is comparatively cut and dry, match a great transport with a high resolution DAC and you have it!

The basic of the turntable setup, and the matching of cartridge compliance to arm mass are all quite academic, but from there the world of audio-land gets interesting. You can mix and match different mats, cartridges (within suitable compliance for the arm) different styli shapes and sizes.

When I restore my Duals, I am always amazed by all the possibilities, sometimes trying the cartridge that came with it, or another one I have on hand. The use of a generic replacement stylus vs a used original in good order can be a major difference maker. (my finding is an unworn original tracks better and sounds more musical) I recently sold a Dual 1218 that sounds heavenly with the Shure M97XE, but the same cartridge on my Technics direct drive for test playing vinyl, sounds just ok. Another AT75 cartridge (rare model) tracks like crazy on my Technics, and also highly dynamic.

 

I think the secret is with following design basics which usually translates into a great sounding turntable:

1) the turntable platter and arm bearings should be of a tighter tolerance or a loading system that renders any "play" as irrelevant.
2) In my experience, a turntable with better feedback isolation and immunity to footfalls tend to sound better. (a major contribution barring any other design weaknesses) The turntables with floating sub-chassis tend to be superior in feedback isolation, such as Thorens, AR and Linn.
3) The heavy platter is more forgiving of slight mechanical defects and bearing wear, more immune to wow and flutter, and also tends to absorb self resonances in the vinyl as the record plays.
4) the cleanliness of the record is critical, not directly a part of turntable design, however, a better turntable may help reduce "surface noise" in a less than perfect record. There's nothing better than a clean, unobstructed groove.
5) The cartridge should be compatible with the arm mass, ie: low compliance cartridge to high mass arms; A high compliance cartridge is a better match to lower mass arms

Notice I did not specify drive type. Any well designed type of drive can produce amazing fidelity, belt drive, rim drive, and direct drive.

Have I overlooked anything?

 

Know exactly what you want

Get a quality one, vintage or new

Get your favorite cart

Get gold headshell leads

Done deal

 

The platter material/durometer/thickness, subplatter, plinth, length of belt, etc. can be designed with the same considerations as to resonance as is used in matching a cartridge to an arm. Keep all those potential resonant frequencies out of the audio band, and you have an acoustically dead table.

 

[QUOTE="jim tavegia, post: 12724313, member: 17096"

I think that an under $500 the table I would just buy is a Project Debut Carbon DC. At slightly more it seems like the new Pioneer 1000 is the talk of the town. I don't think that anyone could go wrong with any of the Music Hall's, either. I also think the cart and phono stage are more important anyway.

.[/QUOTE]

My brother bought one a few months ago, and I heartily concur. It's not just good for 500 clams, it's good, period. He has it paired with the Lounge audio phono preamp, a great pairing.

 

Considering you (Brian) would be most likely looking at crazy expensive tables since you have a Brinkmann, I'd say NO, there's no real way to audition a table without a home demo. Even if you can go hear your exact system with the exact table you want, things can sound much different at home. This is all particularly true when you're talking about >$10,000 turntables since they're all pretty much fantastic.

I laugh when I read a comparison of two different tables (but not at home) online and one is preferred over the other. How is it anyone could possibly compare two turntables that have different arms, carts, cables, preamps, amps, speakers, and rooms? Impossible thing to do. All you could conclude is which system you preferred and what sound you would like to achieve at home.

 

Personally I think the best is not to audition anything. Not if it is a part of selecting a component. There is an obvious risk that the wrong component is choosen. I never audition anything before buying.

 

I usually buy components based on some info, reviews, specs, etc., and if there's a good deal. Another strong point for me is how it looks, especially if it's a turntable. Never wanted to audition something in an environment totally different from mine, matched with components that I don't have, and to listen to the sellers bla-bla-bla nonsense. Also there's some ethical issues for me, because where I live, the local stores, selling audiophile gear, wants the highest possible imaginable prices, so for me it's clear that I'll never buy from them, but from some online store abroad, so it's not good to waste the local sellers time with auditions and questions, only to order the component in question from somewhere else.

 

Music Direct will let you return things up to 30 days after purchase for the purpose of auditioning within your system. I have never put this to the test, but I believe I did read that on their website.