How do you audition a turntable?

I think I like the Pro-Ject Classic 12 more then the Signature 12, it looks a little less busy and I like the choice of an Ortofon arm.

I think I have to agree on SME's modern tables looking more like something that belongs on the international space station then my rack. One of the reasons I went with the VPI Classic is it's just how a turntable should look IMO - simple, elegant, and, well, Classic!

 

Wrong!

My understanding is that most of the components inside the Garrard are replaced with custom machined parts. Pretty much all of them.

 

I know there's a Shindo bearing, and I believe the main idler wheel. But from there, hmmm. I mean, the whole idea of these 50's European idler decks is that they were mechanical marvels. 60 year old machines are going to need some servicing of course, but completely redoing it seems to miss the point. Almost like buying a McIntosh amplifier and replacing the transformers.

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt there's a benefit. I'm just out to identify where the money goes in some of these SuperGarrards.

As an aside: Why can't I feel the same lust for a TD-124 as I do a 301? Obviously people make amazing plinths for those as well, but they never seem as expensive. It's odd as I've heard people say they think the Thorens is "much" better looking, but I think it looks like a toy whose tonearm should be Mickey Mouse's arm. I wouldn't kick one out of bed though.

 

I think you have to ask, what are you expecting to get soundwise out of the Shindo that you don't have already, especially for the type of music I think you are most into? Don't you already have a pretty nice deck? Personally i think idler/direct drive tables have too many parts to break and/or make noise, custom machined or not. I prefer simple designs myself.

On the other hand if aesthetics/room decor is equally important that is valid, and those garrards do look cool. But ergonomics is very important with turntables so don't over look that. No tonearm lift? Sounds like a serious omission to me. Also, resale value is a consideration but getting something you won't want to change and doesn't give you any trouble for many years is pretty cool too.

 

So in another thread, someone made the wise statement that you should upgrade to solve an existing issue. To that end, if the issue is the visual design of the table, then audition by looking at a picture.

 

Good advice. All of my upgrades have been to solve the "not awesome enough" problem.

 

Well, you can buy what you want and can afford, but I wouldn't upgrade just to spend money. If you don't have much more invested in your actual music collection than your equipment then what's the point really.

 

Brian, a friend had the Shindo 301 and loved it (later sold it back to Matt for reasons that I'm still scratching my head over) anyway if you go the Artisan Fidelity route can't they build one to match the decor/system specs to your liking?

 

Oh, my upgrades aren't just to spend money. They're to make my system sound better. I don't believe I've ever made any lateral moves.

I don't think there's any especially useful metric in music owned to cost of system. If I only owned ten albums, but I loved them with all my heart and soul and was determined to squeeze every drop of emotion out of them I could, I'd like to think it was a worthwhile pursuit.

 

I might look at a Linn LP 12, but that's me.

 

I have to say, I think the Shindo 301 is one thing of the better looking tables I've seen, though I have not seen it in person. The Artisan Fidelity tables look a bit overstated for my taste, but not egregiously.

I agree that it is difficult to justify the price of the Shindo table, but I don't play in that market, so my budget views don't count.

This hunt of yours will be fun for us!

 

A dealer in my area sells a lot of very expensive systems that either utilize vintage parts in new assemblages or utilize new, but old school components (e.g., Audionote). The table he often puts into these systems is surprisingly inexpensive, given how much the other stuff costs--Thorens 124s (he prefers the Thorens over the Garrard 301s). He also likes the top-of-the-line Ortofon arm on either idler wheel table (again, an "inexpensive" choice). The Thorens certainly sound very good (lively and punchy sounding), but, I haven't done any kind of head to head comparison with a modern table like the one I have (Basis Debut with vacuum clamp and Basis motor controller). I bet that both the Garrard and and Thorens would look quite nice done up by Artisan Fidelity.

I have heard so many nice systems built around such a variety of tables that I am beginning to think that one cannot go radically wrong picking any of the top tables that come highly recommended. This is certainly not the case with other components, like speakers and amps, where there is a BIG difference in sound among the well-received models. Since it is pretty hard to pick tables based on sound (difficult to set up direct comparisons), I can see how looks become a major factor. I say go with something that looks appealing to you that will accomodate your preferred tonearm.

 

He listens and knows what he likes. I would love to visit him. It would be an education for sure.

 

From a pure aesthetics standpoint, I prefer the Shindo design to the Artisan Fidelity one, but that's a very personal thing. Further - I can't imagine that an alternative implementation of the Garrard turntable would exceed Shindo's design within the context of an all-Shindo system. Finally - as a Shindo "user" - I'd be shocked if their turntable is anything short of spectacular.

That said - if looks are one of the primary reasons that you're looking for a change, don't get the Shindo if you don't love the looks. You already have a pretty darned good-looking turntable/arm combo - so no need to make a change to another pretty darned good-looking table that's still not what you're "looking" for. So I think you just need to go take another look/listen and determine if you love the Shindo's looks - if the answer is yes, then order it - if the answer is no, then scratch it off your list and look at Artisan and other options.

 

I went through the same thing when i was choosing between a Lamborghini or a Ferrari. Then I realized there was no way to make a bad choice. It really took the pressure off.

Seriously, you really can't make a bad choice with those options. The 60 day trial from musicdirect on the vpi direct drive could be interesting. Not nearly as exotic but beautiful just the same.

 

I'll have to admit, if someone buys a $30K turntable, and only had 10 records, I would find that pretty dumb. In fact I would assume the person had some sort of problem or other.

 

You don't think there is a pretty clear distinction between vintage and modern turntables? I think it's somewhat similar to the difference between vintage and modern speakers. The vintage can sound excellent and musical, but have a bit less detail/soundstage/separation compared to what is possible with modern design and manufacturing. This may not matter to the typical audiophile too much, as they (we) tend to be a bit older, and you simply can not avoid some age related hearing loss, unless you get really lucky I guess. If you can still hear up to 17-18 khz or more, you might want to make sure you like the vintage sound before taking the plunge. Normal range for males around age 40 seems to be about 14-16 though.

 

A correction.. please make that an AT57XE (I transposed the numbers) The Audio Technica 57XE is an integrated headshell/ cartridge that physically resembles other DJ bayonet mount carts, but this is a hi fi cartridge. It is a dual magnet MM design with a 0.3 x 0.7 mil nude mounted diamond, that tracks well and sounds wonderful.

 

Jack Roberts over at Dagogo.com has reviewed both the Artisan Garrard and Shindo Garrard tables. If I remember correctly he has some direct comparisons between the two. Might be worth a read if you haven't already. Good luck Brian.

 

I do hear, in a generalized way, differences between vintage tables, like those with idler drives, but not having heard many tables in my own system, I am reluctant to definitively attribute the particular qualities to the table itself. But, I have heard similar sound from non-idler tables, like the BIG Audionote table (three motors, belt driven, three separate power supplies), so I again don't know how to attribute certain qualities to specific design. Because a lot of the fans of vintage gear also favor certain arms and cartridges (e.g., Ortofon SPU and Koetsu) I have not heard many such systems with the likes of Lyra cartridges (one of my favorite brands, I own a Titan). I do agree that most vintage systems are primarily about the midrange and sacrifice high end extension and detail, but I confess that I have not done enough of my own trials to determine the contribution of the table to this sound. I have heard vintage systems that sound very much as I expected them to sound with non-vintage tables, like the TW Accustic table, and my own "vintage" system with a Basis Debut.

If one considers the table/arm as a system, yes, I do hear much more consistent qualities to basic types of systems. There IS a vast difference between those table/arm combinations that attempt to damp vibrations caused by the needle tracking in the groove (vibration transmitted to the arm and vibrations imparted in the record), and those table/arm combinations that don't have damping as a primary design goal. I happen to like the "darker" sound of the well-damped combinations, like the Basis Debut with vacuum clamp (what I have) or the ClearAudio Reference (delrin platter, perimeter clamp, well damped tonearm), but I also can see why, in some systems, the livelier sound-- of lightly sprung tables, like the Linn or J.A. Michelle, with lively arms like the Naim ARO--might be preferred. Well damped systems, to me, deliver real detail and more natural sounding attack and decay of notes, and much less intrusive ticks and pops, but, they can sound "dead" to some listeners and in certain systems. How everything in a vinyl system adds up is really complicated, paricularly when one factors in the cartridge and the phonostage.

 

Find a specialist dealer who will give you the time to hear it with other components of your choice. If you get to know a dealer they may even lend you a Tt.

 

Obviously, Brian is going for a look. I must say the plinth's look beautiful, but an old Garrard design wouldn't be my cup of tea. No cueing mechanism would not be something I would want either. It's too easy to snap a very expensive cantilever. For thirty grand I would want something to couple the record to the platter and a speed control.

 

And there's always something more awesome!

I already have a great table, so I'm not trying to solve any problems per se. When I was auditioning the Shindo stuff I ultimately purchased, there was definitely a quality to the sound that's only hinted at in my current system. I'd say it had this all-enveloping 3-dimensionality to it that I don't quite get.

Now the hard thing to know is if my room will even allow me to get to that level. Maybe the table gets me there. Maybe not. If not, it's an expensive piece of furniture, albeit one that is gorgeous and will deliver untold hours of happiness that should also hold its value over time and become an heirloom.

I've personally yet to experience the mythical law of diminishing returns in HiFi. I hear lots of lip service paid to this, but I've yet to regret a single upgrade I've made. Not a single one. And I've always felt that the improvements were well worth the cost, even the most expensive upgrades.

I'm not falling over myself to make this upgrade today. But I've been planning to do this upgrade this year at some point and want to start auditioning tables now if I can. Turns out Artisan Fudelity has a dealer in Southern California with a Garrard 301 Statement. It's the same dealer I got my current table from, so maybe I'll make a road trip down there and also stop by ShindoLand again.

 

Yeah, he basically says they are both amazing. Differences seemed very subtle.

 

Garrard, ie Loricraft, make the 501.http://www.garrard501.com/garrard501.html