Hey Dan, glad to see you put the Teo link on this great thread. Teo lived one town up from me (Glens Falls, NY) and his parents owned a night club where many of these acts would play on their travels up to Canada. In fact my in laws saw many of the great artist from Columbia play there as they lived in town. Just to let you know my name is Larry DeVivo and I own Silvertone Mastering. I also own a 1963 12x3 tube console built from all Langevin parts (design is straight out of the 1961 Langevin catalog and this one used to be in UCLA theater, film and television department). Something Jerry Marotta and I've talked about for a while now is trying to do a Columbia 30th street type recording together. Jerry has the church in Dreamland Studios, I have the tube console, Bob Irwin has the Presto 3 track ( that Dominick Costanza did all the Kind of Blue, Time Out, etc... transfers on). Between us I think we have 4 or 5 of the M49's we'd need. I just started talking with Tony and Pete Levin right now about trying to capture their next jazz album using this set up. I know it's not really Columbia 30th street but I think we'd all be paying homage to the recording techniques of that era. Personally I know I'd love to try it. Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread instead I'd like to thank you, Steve and all the others who have put the effort into this thread. Columbia 30th street and Frank and all the other great engineers certainly deserve the recognition.
Hi Larry, Nice to meet you, and thanks for that link and for participating in this thread. I don't feel at all like you are hijacking the thread by talking about a possible project using the same techniques and similar gear to that which was used in 30th St.; I think it would be a noble experiment to see if the magic is translatable from one space and time to another. A discussion of what elements made those recordings in it's Golden Age (what I think of as ~1956 to ~1962 or -3) so special would be enlightening, and I welcome it. Several things I can think of off the top of my head, in no order: 1) No instrument amplifiers. 2) Stellar players. 3) Dead silent gear with pleasing distortion characteristics used conservatively (not at the edges of performance). 4) Great mics, specifically the M49 and others of that era. 5) Sweet reverb chamber with pleasing characteristics including a tape delay which has its own sonic character. 6) Big recording space with unfinished/finish worn-off wood floor. 7) Not super tight-mic'd, although from Frank's descriptions often around 6" or so for a trumpet or sax. 8) Music that takes advantage of these space and equipment characteristics by incorporating silence and sound going to silence. 9) Players playing together and not one at a time. No headphone monitoring for players. Is it possible to make some kind of checklist and by meeting each item come up with recordings with the same magic? I would think so, but I'm neither a musician nor a recording engineer or producer. What do you think? And maybe my definition of the studio's Golden Age is too expansive or restrictive? In other news, I haven't had a lot to say about 30th St. for a while, which is why I haven't said anything. I'm glad you did, and I am working on something that will give us something to talk about but it's not ready yet. It's not a book or movie or anything exciting like that.
Hey Dan, trying to edit my post above as I remembered it was Mark Wilder that did those transfers and not Dominick Costanza but I can't see any edit function. Also trying to add a picture to my profile but can't figure that out either. Thanks for the post on the recording techniques. Pete Levin actually recorded in Columbia 30th street back in the day, I'll find out with who from him. That said, he was the keyboard player for Miles Davis, Joco Pastorius and Gil Evans Orchestra. Even though Tony Levin is best know for his work with Peter Gabriel and King Crimson his background is in jazz going to Eastman School of music. That's where he and Steve Gadd became friends and when Tony graduated it was Steve that pulled Tony into Paul Simons band. Steve Gadd would probably be the drummer on this session as well if we can pull this off. Eric Lawrence (the Band) is Tony and Pete's sax player. Jeff Seigel also plays drums for them as well. So I think the band would have no trouble pulling off the performances. That said, Tony usually plays electric upright bass and cello and Pete plays piano and a Hammond B3 organ as well. So that is a sticky point. Tony would probably have no trouble playing acoustic bass but there is no way to do an "acoustic" organ ( pump organ? ha ha) As for the studio, Dreamland is an old church and the floors are worn quite well. Here is a little link to a session we did there shooting out DI's so you can see the studio. Here is a link to the Levin Brothers web page. http://www.thelevinbrothers.com Anyway I think everybody would be excited to try and pull this off but the logistics are a whole other can of worms... We shall see what happens.
Hi Larry, The edit function is only active for an hour or so after you make the post. After that a Higher Power has to be invoked to edit posts. Cool video; I think it's safe to say that you have the talent component of the check list covered, and from the looks of it, about half of the 30th St studio size element. Don't know how to get around that, really.... That seems like a tough one. I was kind of hoping for some contrary discussion to my checklist; I don't know that my list is relevant, complete, or accurate on its face. It would seem, though, if you're going to try to match something you have to first decide what are the parts of it you are trying to match, and then figure out how you evaluate the end result to know if you've succeeded. I guess that is where the art and music get translated into science, and can it even be done? I don't know. I've been told and shown that there is someone on the Ampex mail list who is currently trying to do the same thing you've discussed, Steven Baldessarre. Is he part of your group? Best of luck to both of you regardless. Edit: See, I remembered something just after hitting Post, which allows for editing. Regarding the profile pictures, you have to have a picture that meets the size requirements (shown on the Profile page when you go to edit it, maybe? I don't remember.) and then upload it to this site. Maybe someone else who knows for sure can chime in. It must not be too hard, because I was apparently able to do it.
Folks, I know this is rather off topic, but can anyone identify the gentleman to the right of Albert Grossman? Thanks in advance for any help. Possibly Studio A, NYC:
Speaking of the studio layout diagram posted long ago (below), one thing missing is the large stairway upstairs, which was just inside the front door, to the right of the Security guard's desk. It was those stairs I took to go upstairs where I found the file cabinet with the ARC company files, and the original Columbia ledger, and some live echo chambers which had formerly been Sunday School Rooms. (I never knew there were live chambers in the basement, as others have reported.) Also, I never heard of the "Horowitz Room" (but there's no reason that I would have), but I remember there were showers in that location, and I remember being told Goddard Lieberson had them installed so producers and artists (?) could take a shower after a day of recording. Those were the days, my friend!
Great, thanks, Doug, for this. Note that because of Lukpac's finding of an aerial view from the time when it was still a church, the distance from the control room window to the street is actually as large or larger than the depth of the studio north-south. There was unquestionably more stuff in that space than I thought when I drew this quoted diagram. It also seems likely that the space shown to the north of the security guard's desk and to the west of the old control room back wall didn't actually exist, that the concave shape formed by the back wall of the old control room and the two walls on either side of it were the outside walls, and that that was true at the east end as well. This diagram has been made obsolete in large part by what has been found in this thread and needs to be redone, only the new square footage of the South part of the building is largely terra incognita to me. It would be enlightening to talk to you sometime along with others who were there to try to fill out that unknown (to me) space. It's fascinating that you say there were live chambers UPstairs, which means they would have had to create reflective, dense wall/floor/ceiling boundaries as opposed to working with concrete floor/walls in the basement. Also, I hadn't heard about showerS plural in that "Horowitz" area. I think Steve Epstein called it that, and was described to me I think as bathroom and cot for resting, specifically for Horowitz but used by others, too. Can I add you to the Friends of 30th St email list? I saw your email address in an Ampex list thread that Lukpac forwarded to me. It would be fun to hear you and other veterans of the studio talk about stuff, to the extent that there is conversation on that email list. Thanks!
This stairway? This picture was posted earlier in the thread, and as I said then it's the only picture that I've seen of a stairway and I would be happy to see more. When going by the incorrect floor plan of everything outside of the studio above, I assumed that the photographer was facing West toward the stairway that I thought was behind the old control room. Are you saying that the stairway was to the East of the doorway, across from the security guard's desk? Was it perpendicular to the sidewalk wall or parallel to it? Which side was the downhill side up the flight to the second floor? So was the photographer in that picture facing North, South, or East? I assume the stairway had access to the door, so the photographer wouldn't have been facing West. Thanks!
Hi, The photo appears to me to be of the stairway in the East end of the building (East of the Horowitz Room, the stairway which I was told had been used as an echo chamber and to which lines from the patch bay at 52nd Street could be connected. This is a narrow stairway, and it goes both up and down. The one in the foyer off the ground floor entrance (across from the security desk) was perhaps twice as wide (maybe 6' instead of 3') and there was no stairway going down. I imagine that parents would arrive and and send their kids upstairs to the Sunday School Rooms, and then go on into the main sanctuary alone. Because I never saw anything behind or leading to the original control room, I can't say anything about any stairway which might have been there. But I doubt if the photo shows any such stairway. My impression is that the old control room was not a great deal higher than the studio floor, I mean not a full floor above, whereas the photo shows what looks like part of a multi-floor stairway, which is how I remember the stairway east of what you show as "Horowitz's Room". If I'm right, then the wall with the ladder leaning against it is the South wall, parallel to the sidewalk, and the wall to the left of it is the East wall. Hope this helps!
Hi Doug, Wow, you really hit a lot of discussable points! Thanks for this. I heard that there was a stairway somewhere that was used as an echo chamber, but my poor memory of what I was told has it at Studio A and not at 30th St. They already had an echo chamber in the 30th St. basement, according to Frank Laico, and multiple chambers upstairs that you saw, so why would they need to run lines across town to a stairway that was not blocked off to traffic and could have strange noises at any time? Or was it somehow blocked off? I hadn't heard of a stairway at the East end of the building, but that makes sense to me that there would be one. The design of the building is really a mystery. What is clearly the main entrance in the church pictures this one from 1908, I think, has people going in and out in the middle, while the East and West entrances are fenced off. That changed when CBS took it over and the middle entrance completely disappeared, but wouldn't you think there'd be a stairway up and down in the middle near the only entrance used for services, so that the kids could go upstairs immediately rather than going to the ends of the building? And would CBS go to the trouble of removing a central stairway and only leaving one access stairway to the basement? It's a mystery to me.... I don't think there was a stairway behind the old control room and don't think that's what this photo shows. It WAS what I thought, though, before Luke found the aerial view of the building. Now I think there was nothing behind the rear old control room wall. There was definitely a short flight of stairs up to the old control room, though, and it was accessed by the door on the left kind of next to the old control room. That is well-documented, I believe. This door behind the folding chair at the left edge of the photo: I believe you, although I hope we can get someone else to corroborate it, and it helps a lot! Thanks! I'd like to start a conversation about this with the 30th St Friends who were there; can I add you to the group so you can be in the conversation? There's no cost or anything....
Sorry to be a downer, but I believe you are wrong on both counts. Were Bob Dylan and Glenn Gould ever in the same room? I have no idea, but I wouldn't think it would be at that stage of Dylan's career but again I have no idea. Doesn't look like GG to me, although I agree there are certain facial similarities. That second picture is from the Sony Masterworks site and is ID'd as Alfred Drake during the recording of Kismet. There are many more pictures of Alfred on that session and others and it looks like him consistently. Again, sorry to be disagreeable.
I have no idea if there was a center staircase, nor do I feel strongly one way or another about it, but I wouldn't assume there was one there simply because there was a door in the middle. I've certainly been in schools (for example) where the main entrance is in the middle of the front of the building, but the staircases are on either end of the building. But, like I say, I have no strong feelings one way or another, nor any sort of documentation or photos.
Very cool. Initially I thought that was probably from the same session as So Long, Big Time, but upon closer inspection it doesn't appear to be. Nice variation of shots around the studio and control room.
"The Trolley Song" was recorded December 29, 1965, for The Movie Song Album. ("So Long, Big Time" was two years earlier, September 17, 1963, for The Many Moods of Tony.)
That's terrific, Martin & Paul, thanks for putting it here. The So Long Big Time session was conducted by Harold Arlen and was part of a documentary about Arlen that is worth watching. He wrote a tonne of songs and seemed like an interesting person. In memory I thought the doc was put together contemporaneously with the footage, but I see now it was released in 1999 so it must have been assembled from vintage footage. Man, there must be a lot of stuff out there that we still don't know about! Thanks again for posting it. There must be more somewhere, since it cuts off midstream. Interesting to see how the studio layout is similar if not the same as So Long Big Time.
The Allmusic bio of Dory Previn credited to William Ruhlmann says "for", so you weren't alone in using it. http://www.allmusic.com/artist/dory-previn-mn0000800492/biography The Wikipedia article on her doesn't, although it mentions the song and otherwise seems to be a slight rewording and expansion of that Allmusic bio. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dory_Previn
In the very first post of this thread. Edit: But worth repeating, as it's a really great song. In the documentary, Dory Previn talks about how it grew from a little tiny song to the great swaggering farewell that we hear in the video.
