Analog vs. Digital LP mastering - a comparison LP project

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Pinknik, Jul 30, 2015.

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  1. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member Thread Starter

    TLMusic and erniebert like this.
  2. sportzdad

    sportzdad Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Athens, GA
    I will buy one
     
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  3. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member Thread Starter

    Me too. I believe that I won't be able to tell the difference. We shall hear.
     
  4. skriefal

    skriefal Senior Member

    Location:
    SLC, Utah
    I like that they seem to be planning to leave the sides unlabeled, and then post the details later on which side is AAA and which is AAD. Otherwise the exercise would be flawed.
     
  5. JonP

    JonP Active Member

    Well technically the "digital" side is going to be ADA, not AAD. And I just hope that one side is not "better" than the other simply for no other reason than on many vinyl records, one side just sounds better than the other. Just because. Probably something in the pressing process. I have a 45 RPM ORG release that is on 4 sides but sides 1 and 4 are precisely the same. ORG just decided to duplicate it because the program was so short. But they don't sound the same. One of them sounds better than the other.
     
  6. Paul Chang

    Paul Chang Forum Old Boy, Former Senior Member Has-Been

    Which one? 1 or 4?

    The difference may be due to one was facing up and the other down when the records were pressed. There may be other factors.
     
  7. JonP

    JonP Active Member

    Side 4 is better. So the "upside down" one. Maybe you are onto something here. I've never really thought about it but if I was going to be really pendantic about it, I very rarely have any side 2 that sounds worse than a side 1. Actually it is often the reverse (side 1 sounds often worse than side 2) if I am being really picky about it. Of course it is all relative though with nearly all my side 1 and 2s sounding anywhere from good to outstanding.
     
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  8. skriefal

    skriefal Senior Member

    Location:
    SLC, Utah
    Possibly sides 1/4 were pressed with different stampers made from the same "mother", with one stamper more worn than the other.
     
  9. econalan

    econalan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    Looking forward to this. Should be fun if he's able to hit the $20 price point.
     
  10. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    There has to be a way to distinguish one side from the other, or else the test will really be flawed...
     
  11. skriefal

    skriefal Senior Member

    Location:
    SLC, Utah
    Yes, I would expect that they'll at least label the sides as "A" and "B"!
     
  12. Paul Chang

    Paul Chang Forum Old Boy, Former Senior Member Has-Been

    I forgot to ask. Which ORG 45 RPM is that?
     
  13. motionoftheocean

    motionoftheocean Senior Member

    Location:
    Circus Maximus
    Great idea and I'll most likely check it out but such a bloody dismal choice of music
     
  14. Ash76

    Ash76 Wait actually yeah no

    Ihoping someone is going to create a survey here for those who buy it. Lookjng forward to seeing the results
     
  15. JonP

    JonP Active Member

    Further to that someone on the website made the very good point that anyone who owns the existing release can deduce which side is which by comparing the deadwax. No one is going to manually inscribe that area precisely identically each and every time - even if it is ostensibly the same signature, wording and position - so it would be a matter of matching the deadwax on the old and new release and voila...you have your AAA side.

    I'm not sure how they are going to get around that unless they recut both sides (which I would actually prefer as it maintains a greater control over all the possible variables in my opinion).
     
  16. JonP

    JonP Active Member

    At the risk of upsetting those who love other genres, in my opinion nothing tests equipment and particularly analogue to digital and digital to analogue converters like classical music does. Especially when it comes to mass string sound. I believe the test music is a very good choice when you look at the aim of the exercise. I know for my own part that I would stand an extremely high chance of correctly identifying which side is which if it were classical music because I am initimately acquainted with what digitalisation does to acoustic, bowed stringed instruments. If it were anything else then given the calibre of equipment used and Kevin Gray's expertise, I would stand very little to no chance. Actually I'd say zero chance to be honest.
     
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  17. motionoftheocean

    motionoftheocean Senior Member

    Location:
    Circus Maximus
    My issue is not with the classical music, but with the piece selected. I think you are spot on with your assessment, and that I spend most of my time working with classical music has me in complete agreement, but I am not a fan of the Rachmaninov.
     
  18. JonP

    JonP Active Member

    OK. Sorry. I tend to agree in that case. I do actually like the piece myself (I have the Reference Recordings version). As much as I still think it is a very good choice if you look at everything out there, I still do think that to push the technical limits of digital something better (as in more revealing of digital's shortcomings) could still have been chosen. So yes, I guess we have a common issue with it but for possibly different reasons. I think in the end they had to make a practical choice based on who is pressing / selling it, who is mastering and what portions have already been done by whom, etc.

    I actually think the best way to test this would have been to choose an early 60s Decca / London classical that Bernie Grundman has already done for ORG and have him do the digital bit. To me nothing tests digital like those old 60s Deccas. I use these ORG recordings for all of my potential equipment testing / tuning.
     
  19. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
    -------------------------
    When Musical Fidelity's owner, Antony Michaelson performed his clarinet solos of Mozart's K622, recorded by the great Tony Faulkner and produced by John Atkinson, I bought the SACD and the 180 gram lp (RTI and the great Stan Ricker) from the analog source, that was as much a great performance as it was a "science project". The disc was cut with both analog and digital files and the SACD was dual layer so one could decide if there was a significant difference in the recorded formats. I am so glad I bought it when it came out.

    On the SACD tracks 103 were pure DSD and tracks 406 were analog converted to DSD. on the CD layer: tracks 1-3 were DSD downsampled to redbook and tracks 4-6 were analog to redbook. This was from 2003. Here is the link to the Stereophile article written by John Atkinson.

    http://www.stereophile.com/content/project-k622-k622-music
     
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  20. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member Thread Starter

    Jim, what were your preferences? Thanks.
     
  21. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
    -------------------------
    The first nice problem is that Tony Faulkner's work is so amazing that even in redbook the recording is great. But, it is hard not to love the SACD as Tony has great experience with DSD and know that it is the best it can be. I should also add that I am a huge fan of 2496 and 24192 so I am biased to higher sampling rates already, but love the smoothness that comes with it, that redbook can't touch regardless of the tracking format.

    The LP is great in it's analog form being cut by one of the masters of the craft, but my problem is that I don't own any superb turntables, but on my refurbished Dual 502 with a Rega arm and Shure M97 it sounds great to me. I sure if you owned a VPI or SME with a great cart and phono stage you jight love the lp even more.

    The SACD wins for me this time. I am re-listening to the lp on my Dual/Rega combo as I type and could easily live with this if I didn't own both the SACD and LP.

    This will be a fun science project for those of you who participate. The better your analogue and digital gear, your bar will be raised even higher. Now if I only had this in native 24/192? We audiophiles are a sad lot.
     
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  22. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
    I should have also added that it is the native tracking format that will decide the ultimate quality of any recording. That is why this SACD sounds so good as it started as DSD and not something lower and mastered to SACD. I would have no issues with something tracked at 24/192 and then put out as an SACD.
     
  23. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

    Location:
    ---------------
    I see a problem. There will be two different feeds from the analog tape. setting up an analog tape and running it two different times is a variable. No way to know the signal was exactly the same both times. It would have been good if the digital copy had been made from the same exact feed that was fed to the cutting console when doing the all analog cut.
     
  24. [​IMG]
     
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  25. cdash99

    cdash99 Senior Member

    Location:
    Mass
    Or A & D
     
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