Do you believe in everything that you hear?

Over the past couple of years, I've spent some cash and re entered the audio world. It went from bad to better to now. I'm extremely happy.

 

I have that disc, and I know that the mono brown-noise track is described as being useful for integrating subs, but I have no idea how that is supposed to work. Would appreciate learning the answer.

 

First you must have atleast one sub.
OK my friend. What it (the disc Brown noise) does at its best is to achieve a similar character in the Slope of the subs involved, if you have a Slope switch. My KEF psw4000 has a 12 db and 24 db switch.
Its a track of Mono Brown noise thats bass heavy and in a way it just keeps your multiple subs sounding the same and having them sound their best together. Without good symetry subs boom and suck out all the lower frequencies.
You have lets say two subs and one only need have a slope switch. Play the track and flip the switch and a noticable agreement if you will and smooth bass boost will happen. Both subs like I said do not need a slope switch.
The same thing happens with the Phase switch. Have a sub setup in a place you like, need, or have to and play with the phase switch of the second sub if have.. The first sub is setup in a place where its at O degrees compared to the main speakers especially if they are full range, the sub doesnt have to be O degrees but you have to make that determination. The nearer the sub is to the mains the more likely it will be set to Phase O degrees and not 180 degrees or any value between if you have a rotary phase knob like my sub.

My first sub is also a KEF but with a O/180 switch and not a rotating knob. I make that sub sound its best first by physically putting it in best place possible. Then with the Ayre disc play the mono Brown noise and flip the switches on the second sub that have a Slope 12-24 db switch and a O to 180 degree rotating knob and when the bass is at its fullest you properly aligned the two subs.
Track 5 mono Brown noise only last a minute or two so repeating it will be a must or loop it with the CD player controls.

The same can be done if you have full main speakers and one sub. Put your sub where you think it plays the best and then play the Brown noise track and start flipping switches slowely and you will intergrate the sub/subs soon enough. I know this sounds convoluted but its really easy.

After my phutzing around the Psw4000 changed from O degrees to 45 degrees Phase, Crossover at about 75 hz from 85 hz and Slope from 24 db to 12 db and my main speakers are sort of a ported design that like 24 db slopes but their you have it, it not a rule in stone. DefTech bp 7000 are in a way ported because of their bass radiators but audiophile disagree on that issue-anyway...

In a way all this bass smoothness can be done without many of the switches and knobs and just using your ears that good bass can be achieved. Thats a tough one and many like to use meters and the like but who has all this on hand all the time.
By the way if you cant hear bass that well from the sub that you are adjusting raise the crossover and higher bass frequencies will appear and they are easily heard. DO NOT forget to lower the crossover when done though. If I can help with better prose write me again. Cause when bass is good and the lower octaves are in harmony you are closer to musical nirvana. Take care, John M.

 

Thank you, John. I have just one sub, but I can see from your description how the brown-noise would work as regards setting the phase. I don't have infinitely adjustable phase on my REL, but I can choose between two options, 0 and 180, and the brown-noise track would be good method to see which afforded more bass.

But I can't see how the adjustments as to crossover and level would work, because I can't see how brown-noise is indicative of how music should sound. Put it this way: I don't know what the ideal "brown-noise" should sound like. If I had in my mind's ear some kind of target for what the brown-noise should end up sounding like when the sub is dialed in, that would help. I mean, I'm sure I'll be able to say, "The brown-noise now has more bass in it," or "The brown-noise now has less bass in it," but how is that going to tell me what music will sound like?

 

I have developed a system that so far has worked very well for me. First I read as much as I can about a product- both professional and user reviews and then I listen for myself and the latter is what I give the most weight to. I have learned that there are some people, including a number on this forum, have tastes similar to mine when it comes to audio reproduction, so if they like something, I figure it is worth checking out for myself.
The bottom line for me is to trust, but verify.

 

I assembled my system from components in the "low end of the high end" and significantly discounted. This is the sweet spot of price/performance IMHO.

Meanwhile, I like to scan over audio magazines/sites to focus on music review and state-of-the-industry articles. I avoid equipment reviews like the Plague!

 

I listen for myself, then I determine whether I believe it or not. I can't comment upon things or products that I have not experienced directly.

 

Have faith, if you can believe in Iron age theories of life, surely can accept recent theories that pertain to what you love, cast uncertainty to the wind, grab with both hands.
Spend ya money.

 

1- if the product's name or the manufacturer's name includes the word "magic" I will not consider it
2- if there's no technical explanation or just technobabble I will not consider it
3- if the word "crystal" is mentioned (other than in describing wire such as OCC) I will not consider it
4- if it costs more than a decent car, I will not consider it
5- it has to sound good to my ears

 

Just curious....So even if you found x- amount of money on the street or won a lottery and had no other pressing needs for the money, you still wouldn't ?

D.D.

 

I don't know what you mean by "believe" here; sounds like we are getting off into noumena and phenomena. However I mostly only care about what I hear. Sometimes I give something a shot that someone else recommends when it's counterintuitive though.

 

No, I've been around the block enough times to recognise there are agendas, marketing and sheep behaviour in audio, as in most fields.

I know what I like to hear but I always try to be open minded and aware of things such as confirmation bias, rigidness and prejudices as these things may provide comfort but they hold you back. These are things that are used by marketing people to divert people away from real solutions and into endless costly diversions. For example, many claims are made about high res audio and many people accept it without proof, even though there is peer reviewed evidence that humans cannot hear the difference between 16/44 and 24/96. 100 years of experimental studies have yet to identify an individual with super human hearing that can hear outside 20-20khz or have hears that can resolve detail greater than can be stored at 16bits.

The difference we can hear is in the mastering, but that doesn't get the masses to spend up big on never ending upgrades and the psychology is that people will convince themselves there is a difference unrelated to mastering. I don't believe that there is anything in audio that is not well understood and be measured, tested and benchmarked.

However, psychology and in particular psychoacoustics, is a soft science but is greatly increasing our understanding of perceptions of sound and what affects it. This knowledge holds a promise to increase our enjoyment of music but it is also used by the industry to sell us things such as the above example, expensive cables, burn-in routines etc. All of it, if you believe it, tricks the mind into thinking that it makes a difference to the sound at a subconscious level, the only antidote is properly constructed DBX tests.

 

You were right up until the "antidote" part. There is no antidote for human bias when it comes to how we hear things. You can do all the ABX DBTs you want and be as convinced by the results as humanly possible. Once you go back to sighted listening the biases come back into play and affect your perceptions.

 

Agree 100% (a like isn't enough for this).

John K.

 

( ( ( ( ( ((((((( .

Firstly, it took me years, to concede myself to trust nothing, but my ears! Everything beyond this experience doesn't have a value for me. Over the decades my equipment has increased in quality, but always depending on my disposable funds. There are more things in life, than just music and Hi-Fi equipment. I won't give up travelling during our vacation with my love. She loves to visit foreign countries and I love her. The more I travel, the more I learn about life.
By the way, are there some Finish collectors here on SHF? We will spend a few days around the turn of the year in Helsinki!​

 

The crossover was changed in the one sub as opposed to the other sub which was at a level I felt was at its best and so the sub I considered troubling was worked on in this Brown noise test.
Brown noise is just noise with bass info more than most other types of noise (pink, etc.) and when you twiddle knobs theirs a moment that the bass gets equaled as long as levels are sort of equalized meaning the bass sounds smoother and more powerful and both of my subs and the main speakers all seem to be playing at the same level and each of the bass notes all sound equal in intensity.
To get to this point the Main speakers are played and are setup to where you think its at their best, this can take a very long time as you know. Then in my case the sub that is like your Rel with a 0-180 switch gets integrated and placed in the room the best it can in relation to the Main speakers. Brown noise does not have to be used in this case as Brown noise seems to work for integrating subs to each other best.
Then the second sub that is more problematic has a Slope switch that is a crossover detail and a 0-180 knob that is for fine tuning the sub like most older Rels like Stadium and some new expensive ones.
First changed the slope from 12 -24 db (this is the crossover order, 1st order, 2nd order..)and back while Brown noise is playing and sub is at 0 degrees. 12 slope is settled on cause the bass sounded like it evened out with the rest of the speakers/sub and what was left was the crossover part which works with Slope and the sound got even more refined when a slow turn to about the 45 degree mark made bass its best.
Played some more noise and then played music and in total I feel I got about 25 percent improvement in bass , yes this much. Better the two subs work together and the subs wirk with the mains.

I though that one sub and even the other were close enough to me or the mains that phase was a learned switch position. As usual the distances are guides and Listening (test discs, etc.) must be done and because of that my sound got even better. Phase, Crossover/Slope all work together in that one influences the other and then Level which is just volume. Anyway take care write more if more questions as somebody with the same experience can chime in. Its easy if you start with a room and Main speakers in a very solid , proper, and mathematically correct position. Add the one sub and do all that is needed and then more subs if applicable. John M.

 

" Everything you hear is 90% bull$hit and 10% fact ": Henry Ford (Quote)

With that said:

I believe at least 90% of what is stated on SH Forum is 'given with good intent'. I believe the folks here really believe in what they are saying. If what they say works for you... run with it, try it. Different points of view are always a good thing.

Many folks here on SH have REALLY helped me! Sometimes immensely.

 

You really need to set up a sub,or subs, by testing the frequency response. Really. One slight tweak of the crossover can gift you a 20db null in the bass/mid bass region.

 

Perhaps... but a bit of insight can affect perceptions. On a personal experience, I used to believe there were significant resolution differences between 16/44 and 320kbps MP3 files that can be easily heard. I thought I could easily hear the differences between the two. Then, a few years back, I participated in an experiment at the audio science department of our uni where the two files were DBX'd. I could still pick the difference on some (not all) tracks but they were vey subtle and I had to really focus attention to do so. Since then I no longer can hear a difference between the two bit rates like I thought I was able to do so previously.

Did the DBX experience reduce my ability to resolve the differences between the bit rates that I had previously and therefore reduce my enjoyment of higher bit rate files, or did it remove a layer of confirmation bias and therefore increase my enjoyment of lower bit rate files because I no longer look for differences that either are not material or do not exist? I've known people that swear they can hear the difference between $50 and $500 speaker cables but are unable to detect the difference in double blind tests. They later no longer sought out expensive cables.

 

The after effect was a change of biases. Nothing wrong with that by the way.

 

Yes, no, maby...

 

Yes, I believe in everything I hear.
Don't doubt it for a second.
Are you happy now?