Vinyl Thickness - 180 gram vs *standard* vinyl

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by psulioninks, Nov 3, 2014.

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  1. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    You keep saying this and it's no less incorrect than the first time you said it. With some carts, even minute differences are audible. Period.

    Whether one cares or not is an entirely different question.
     
  2. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    I would say that if this were the case then the cartridge is not aligned optimally.
    There should be a sweet spot VTA /SRA that will allow some tolerance plus or minus half a degree or so without audible difference. If your right on the ragged edge then it might be possible to notice a change in VTA of 1/4 degree but even this sounds questionable unless the stylus is chipped, fractured or debris bonded.
     
    DeRosa likes this.
  3. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    "When the dude from Audio Note was over here last week setting up the Audio Note turntable in my listening room, we had a chance to really listen to "variations" in set up. Usually this type of thing puts me to sleep so I leave it to the pros but since I was right there, I picked three short pieces of music from three different albums and we compared. The phono section was in the CAT preamp. The wire stayed the same, my system stayed the same. All that was changed had to do with the table and cart. First, the cart, the anti-skate changed the sound and balance, the tracking angle changed the sound a lot, too bright, not bright enough, etc. all with just tiny adjustments. We could all clearly hear the differences."

    "It was bewildering. Drove me bonkers how the least little BS thing could totally change the sound that way.

    At any rate, it's true, everything changes the sound.
    Is this a good thing or a bad thing? No idea."

    Steve Hoffman 3/24/14
    ---------------------

    So either 1) the guy from Audio Note didn't have a clue how to set-up a turntable and/or was using a damaged stylus and/or 2) Steve's ears (and everybody else's ears in the room) aren't particularly accurate at differentiating tonal changes. Or the tiny adjustments weren't actually tiny.

    Or perhaps all of your math and geometry are measuring the wrong thing?

    Of all the pedantic kookiness in audiophilia -- and particularly among vinyl lovers -- I personally think adjusting VTA for varying vinyl thickness (if one's cart is sensitive to it) is one of the least kooky. Especially with 100-120g records vs 180-200g records. But to each his own I suppose.
     
  4. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    Have a look at what Michael Fremer says on the topic.
    His videos explain why very small amounts of vta change are not something he pays attention to.
    When the stylus rides in the groove it is not dependent on being at a specific angle, just inside the range.
     
    Dave Decadent likes this.
  5. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    I'm well aware of what Fremer has to say on the topic and how folks now quote his math and geometry to confirm what they don't hear. He's a valuable advocate and resource for the vinyl community, but like his occasional revised opinions on things like digital sourced vinyl that turn out to be analog or vice versa, he's letting his brain dictate his opinion rather than his ears.

    What all this math and geometry fails to explain is how do Steve and the guy from Audio Note -- and more than a few others -- clearly hear the impact of small changes in VTA?

    Again, if one's cart isn't sensitive to it or one can't hear the difference or one can hear it but don't care...great. But there are way too many people who can and do hear it to say that small adjustments in VTA can't be audible and can't have an impact upon audio quality.
     
  6. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    I'm pretty sure those changes Steve witnessed are way more than the difference in thickness between discs. We are talking fractions of a millimetre which is nigh impossible to adjust for in most arms. It's possible some cartridges sound optimum with the arm a few mills from dead parallel but in comparison the difference between standard and 180grm vinyl is insignificant. Also vinyl weight and thickness varies between discs of the same nominal weight so you would have to somehow adjust for every record.
     
    Johnny Vinyl and DeRosa like this.
  7. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    You're "pretty sure"? Well that settles it then...the "very tiny" adjustments in VTA were actually "large" adjustments in VTA because you're pretty sure that they would test the effect of tiny variations by making large variations instead. Makes perfect sense...

    But what if they were -- as described - "very tiny"?
     
  8. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Did I describe any adjustments as large - we are talking about very small v microscopic that are almost impossible to replicate or achieve. I would say less than millimetre at the arm post is impossible to do and that falls into the difference needed between vinyl grades.
     
  9. Drewan77

    Drewan77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK/USA
    My arm has a micrometer and I do clearly hear the same "tracking angle changed the sound a lot, too bright, not bright enough, etc. all with just tiny adjustments. We could all clearly hear the differences." as mentioned in an earlier post.

    Anyone who cares to listen to my system will hear the same - the changes as you adjust the arm up or down are not subtle - from a dull heavy bass and lifeless treble to a bright sibilant treble and a thinner but punchier bass. However, life is too short to adjust every LP so I have found a good 'compromise' setting that covers most records and have left it at that
     
    timztunz and marcb like this.
  10. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    You don't have go get sarcastic, it weakens your point.

    From my perspective, I'm not at all saying VTA isn't important, what I question is how
    someone can control the flatness of the record to within a fraction of a mm?
    What is the size of the vta tolerance -/+ ? That's Fremer's point too.
    If the record is moving up and down, the angle is constantly changing.
    Even with clamps, with many examples of vinyl the head shell moves up and down
    in a visible way. I think this was Fremer's strongest argument against the micro VTA
    position.

    The reason people use math to disprove things is becuase we can't hear your examples.
    So it's only logical to find a theory to apply. If people what to put the time and energy
    into this, that's great. I certainly don't argue against proper turntable set up!
     
  11. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    And "pretty sure" isn't a point. It's just confirmation bias. And why is it so important to come up with logical, i.e. simple, explanation disprove what many hear, but they haven't?

    Like Fremer, I'm not a mathematician or engineer, but I understand his point. And like many things in this world, it doesn't fully explain what I and many, many others hear.

    There's an old adage that if the "measurements" don't tell you what you're hearing, you're not measuring the right thing. I don't know what the correct measurement(s) is, but there is something that is not being accounted for in VTA with certain carts. My guess would be that it's an entire system thing...everything from tonearm/cart matching to capacitance (and in between) interacts and changes in one parameter can impact others -- this resulting in small, but perceptible tonal changes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
  12. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Again, incorrect.

    The height difference between, say, 120 gram & 200g vinyl is easily doable at the arm post of my tonearm (and almost certainly many others with a continuous thread to adjust VTA).
     
  13. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    You didn't answer any of my questions.

    I'm not seeing anything in the way of "measurements" from the people claiming small VTA changes can be heard.
    Just how much VTA change are we talking about?
    What i'm looking for is the window in VTA that people are saying +/- is their "sweet spot" variable.
    10mm? 1mm? .01mm? .001mm?
     
  14. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    And I'm not seeing anything in the way of "observation" from the people claiming they can't be heard. There's more to the scientific method than theory.

    The amount of height being adjusted isn't complicated. The idea isn't to adjust VTA...it's to keep it constant by adjusting tonearm height to match vinyl height because different vinyl thicknesses otherwise change VTA.

    I don't know the exact height adjustment to compensate for the difference in height between say a 100g record and a 200g record (I have my own simple method for adjusting and calibrating tonearm height), but I'd guess it's about 1.0 to 1.5mm. Assuming that number is correct, then I'd say I've heard slight tonal/dynamics changes with a arm height adjustment delta as small as ~0.3mm - give or take.

    The end result isn't perfect because in the end it's SRA, not VTA, that is the more critical factor (and that's a whole different discussion). But that doesn't negate that very small changes in VTA can be audible.
     
  15. weaselriot

    weaselriot Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    VTA is critical to sound. That is why it is important in TT setup. But I do recall reading our host stating in another thread that he never adjusts VTA for different weight pressings. At least I think I recall reading that. That's not so different from what Fremer says.

    In the end, it should not be costly for some manufacturer who already makes quality turntable mats to turn to making a set of perhaps 2 or 3 turntable mats with different thicknesses, say, one for Dynaflex/125g, one for standard/140-150g, and one for 180g+. We audiophiles intuitively KNOW that however little the actual cost of making such a product, we will pay through the nose (and just about every other known orifice) for it. Because that is what we do, and the manufacturers know it. Nevertheless, if such a product was on the market, any LP that doesn't sound like it should could be quickly and simply tried with a different mat. Sure beats fiddling with the VTA every time a record is changed (especially if you want to keep your friends).

    All of that said, when I was weighing some of my LPs, I discovered not one, but several purported 180g discs to weigh in at 155g-160g, and yet another claimed 180g that came in at a whopping 210g(!). Remarkably, that last is a Kevin Gray cut "Birds of Fire" for Friday Music (of all labels). That's when I stopped weighing my LPs.
     
  16. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    1) There is a difference between not bothering to adjust arm height to maintain consistent VTA (and VTF, etc.) and whether it makes an audible difference. Yes, our host did say that. But that was before the experiment and results quoted above. Whether he still chooses to not do so, I don't know, but he certainly has heard a difference.

    2) Mats can have as big or a bigger impact on sound than an arm height/VTA adjustment and not necessarily a beneficial one. And different mats have different sounds. So you could be robbing Peter to pay Paul. Again, if you read the entire post by Steve, he essentially says a small change to every variable makes a difference (something I agree with 100%).

    3) Changing mats would take me about as long as it takes to change arm height. No gain there for me personally, but of course not every tonearm is the same in terms of the ease of adjustment (if it can be adjusted at all).

    4) Yes, "audiophile" LP weights can vary considerably from the advertised weight. However, IIRC, I've found most to be within 5% though. Regular old vinyl from the prehistoric days ('50s -'80s) could vary from <100g to 150g+.
     
  17. ARCCJ

    ARCCJ Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    Mikey Fremer made a good observation in one of his Analog Planet posts, the change in angle is so tiny that it's not anything someone will notice. Need to brush off your high school geometry to prove it out but it is true. :) Don't fuss, man, just play music and enjoy it.
     
  18. weaselriot

    weaselriot Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL

    Fair enough, though I think mats in a set by one audiophile manufacturer could be designed or "tuned" so as not to change sound from mat to mat, other than by intended height difference. These are just random thoughts, of course. The main point is that relatively few setups provide an easy way to change VTA on the fly while changing records. If it affects sound, it's something that should be addressed.

    But if standard vinyl varied that much back in the day, I would love to have seen a 160g Dynaflex!
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2015
  19. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Fremer didn't observe anything...that's the problem. He just looked at the geometry.

    As I said earlier, if it doesn't make a difference in your system or you can't hear it or you don't really care...more power to you. But it can make a difference.
     
  20. krisjay

    krisjay Psychedelic Wave Rider

    Location:
    Maine
    People spend a lot of money to hear those minute differences in VTA and other things. Most people are not spending that kind of money to hear it. Those that do, probably are hearing a difference, however tiny. Most peoples systems are just simply not setup, nor have the gear needed, or wanted for that. I know my meager setup isn't going to give me that fraction of sound difference. I also don't spend even a second stressing or caring about it. To those that do, more power to them, in the stereo gear world, it is one place you really do get what you pay for in most cases.
     
  21. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    My overriding point is that once you find the sweet spot for an average thickness disc why bother farting around adjusting VTA for minute differences that you may hear or just imagine you hear (expectation bias), when you could be enjoying your music. You won't ever enjoy your hi-fi if you become obsessed by such things.
     
  22. krisjay

    krisjay Psychedelic Wave Rider

    Location:
    Maine
    We have to remember, some people get enjoyment messing about and obsessing over that sort of thing. Enjoyment is enjoyment. For those audiophiles who part of the enjoyment is getting that minute difference, more power to them, after years of metal concerts as a teen, my ears just don't lend themselves to those minute differences, if they did, I'd probably be one of the obsessive.
     
  23. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Like I said before, of all the kooky things in the hobby (and there is no shortage of them), this is one of the least kooky, IMO.

    For me, it takes about 10 seconds to make the adjustment - or slightly less time than it takes me to figure out which album I want to hear...

    YMMV, of course.
     
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