subwoofer time! zu undertone or JL e110..or.. something else?

I spent the better part of today fiddling with my 300 watt 12" sub I use in my home theatre that I think I picked up for 300 bucks. I must have read 30 guides on proper sub placement... tried everything.. it sounded great on some records, but not others, and when kept going through the gambit I was never really satisfied... which led me to start thinking about an 'audiophile' grade subwoofer.

Anyway, I first went looking at at Zu, since that's what my mains are, and saw their $2K undertone.. which is my first choice, but wanted to ask around with anyone who has heard it or the e110 or other JL sub I keep reading so much good things about.

Anyway, thanks!

 

In my theater I have an HSU VTF-15h and it will quite literally shake the walls on Tron - Legacy or War of the Worlds. I always found it to be a little "much" for audio though. What kind of space are you needing to pressurize? That always seems to be the main question, as well as if you have any sort of Room Correction at your disposal. I know REL is almost always suggested whenever "audiophile" is thrown around. I've never had one so I can't give you any firsthand experience but I can say that for 2-channel stereo? I have stereo subs, cheap buggers from Bic America and they do just fine but I don't ask much of them at all - just 40 Hz and down. Point is, merging theater performance and believable stereo reproduction is a bear and honestly, you'll probably need to find a compromise based on your use case. If it's a 50/50 match, I personally would give up a little bloat on my 2-channel rig for the sheer experience you get during movies. That's just me though.

 

REL, I have Zu mains, but a REL sub. See if you can hear one somewhere ...

 

SVS SB13 Ultra -- Simply just an awesome sub.

 

I have the F-110 and could not be happier for a music sub.

Since you already own Zu, contact the Zu Team about trying out their sub and return it if you do not like it!

 

Ya, I met Sean at a show and he said the same thing.... I was just curious about that and the JL e110/sunfires xteq - 12 as well before I pull any trigger

 

If you have the money, Zu all of the way!

 

i love my little REL sub! It just disappears into the room. I heard the new little Sumiko sub the other day and it did a great job as well. I am only talking about 2 channel applications so they may not be earth moving enough for HT.

 

Can you clarify a bit more, dusk?

Did you pull the sub from your home theater system and try it in a separate 2-channel audio system, or are you talking about playing music through your home theater system?

I have some thoughts, depending on your answer.

--David B.

 

Hey David. I took the sub from my 5.1 and am using it in the 2 channel... actually, I now have a 12" sub coming off the integrated variable output through RCA, and then a second 8" sub coming off the 12" sub... both are at the front of the room, on the inside edge of the mains. It sounds........ ok right now, but I'm open to try anything you suggest to see if it works in my house / system.

 

I've got an SVS PB-12 Plus Sub that I can highly recommend.

One thing about the subs I've had that I've noticed. Both SVS and Velodyne recommend a corner placement for 'best' bass. Well, that will give you the MOST bass, but it also (in my experience) excites the most room modes and makes the bass wild and unpredictable. I've had the best luck with the sub in the middle of a wall, either in front or along the side. YMMV.

 

If you're considering the price point of the Zu, you might want to look into the Seaton Submersive HP+. For $2700, you're getting a lot more sub than the Zu. Take a look at the reviews and measured performance.
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/product-listing-availability-status-and-pricing-3366417

 

Ya, I tried the sub in the corner, and it was too boomy; I could pinpoint the bass exactly. Moving it off both walls integrated the bass with the mains a lot more. I have it in OK shape now, but I am certainly wondering what an audiophile grade, fully sealed sub will do to my system.

 

One other thing... if you really want to get the most out of any sub, you'll probably need to EQ it. That will often tame the boominess, nulls and other anomalies inherent in anything producing low frequencies.

The only virtually guaranteed option is going to be a hardware piece that supports Audyssey's MultEQ XT32. Some receivers have this built-in, and there was a standalone box available. It's now discontinued, but you may want to look into hunting one down. I owned both this box, as well as a processor with the SubEQ XT32 technology. Invaluable!

http://www.audioholics.com/acoustic-reviews/svs-as-eq1-sub-eq

 

I love my Rythmik E15HP - such a beast. Check out Rythmik.

 

Okay, if I understand you correctly, your mains are playing full-range, and you have hooked up two internally low-passed subs fed off an RCA line-out from your integrated amp. Some thoughts:

1. It is possible your subs are not designed to complement a set of full-range mains, but rather designed to work below a set of high-passed mains. If that's the case, and you want to run your mains full-range, you might want to investigate a pair of subs specifically designed to be run with full range mains -- perhaps one that is intended to run off the same speaker-level connections from which your mains draw their signal. (This allows the characteristics of your amplifier to express themselves consistently in your mains and in your subs, even though your amp is not powering the subs.)

2. It is also possible the low-pass filters of your two different subs, and the roll-off characteristics of the non-identical drivers in them, are different enough to cause audible and unpleasant low-frequency anomolies in your room. Two identical subs, properly placed, might well solve the problem.

3. You should strongly consider purchasing Jim Smith's book, "Get Better Sound." He has a whole section on subwoofers and subwoofer integration. It could be the best $30 you ever spend on audio. I bought a copy some years ago and found (and still find) it invaluable.

4. Or it could be that you just need better quality subs -- perhaps with a greater range of adjustments on the back. I have heard both models of the Zu subs (Submission and Undertone), and just a week ago at a show, I heard the new JL Audio e112s. They're all great. But I think you should buy whatever good sub you can afford two of, rather than buying a single, more expensive sub. Jim Smith's book goes on at some length about why you shouldn't use just one sub in a two-channel music system, and my listening experiences over time strongly confirm Jim's position on this point.

Best of luck,
--David B.

 

thanks for the advice @David B.

this is the 12"
http://www.snapav.com/p-1890-es-sub-evo12-300-blk.aspx

this is the 8"
http://www.snapav.com/p-1893-es-sub-evo8-110-blk.aspx

I got it to sound pretty good. I have 8" at around 120 cuttoff and that does the majority of bottom end, the 12" is cut off around 50 to really only get the low low bass.

These are ported subs, and they have speaker terminals.. should I try connecting speaker cable to the speaker in on the subs?

 

I don't see why you couldn't give that a try, but I think what you'll be doing is sending a speaker-level signal to your mains that has been high-pass filtered by what are likely inexpensive electronics within your sub. The result may or may not be objectionable. Give it a try and see.

I also note that your subs have speaker-level inputs. I suggest you try running speaker wire between the speaker terminals on your integrated amp and these "high level" inputs on your sub. It should be OK to run your mains and your sub off the same set of speaker terminals on your integrated, as the impedence of the sub is likely benign. This way, you are running your mains full-range and unfiltered, and simultaneously feeding your sub with the same audio signal your mains are getting. (When you use the RCA outputs on your amp to drive the sub, you are bypassing the power amp section of your integrated.)

Good luck.

--David B.

 

I agree with SamS that whatever you do you will want at least 1 channel of parametric EQ available to help tune any sub. Also variable phase adjustment, not just a 0/180 switch.

I use a sealed 15" Rythmik with high pass, low pass, variable phase, rumble filter, and a parametric EQ and fills everything I need. Don't get hung up on the wattage issue. Mine runs just above idle with the lowly 370w(?) amp. Higher wattage is needed by other manufacturers because they use stiffer spiders and surrounds to help control the driver where Rythmik uses an adjustable servo for very low distortion.
I found that I like the middle setting on the servo.

Two things to listen for in ported designs are the tone of the port, can you hear the port, and the phase of the port. At the price points you are considering, hopefully you do not hear a bump in the response caused by the port. Is the tone coming out of the port noticeably out of phase with the rest of the sound wave? Integration will be tricky if the port is tuned where it can interfere with the bass from the mains because the phase of the port is not the same as the phase of the driver. Generally you adjust the phase of the driver to match the phase at the crossover point to the mains, assuming the unit has a dial to adjust the phase. But phase is not linear so as you move up or down in frequency you will find a different phase angle than you have at the crossover point, which makes the port important. You can ignore most of that with a sealed sub.
If you are using this primarily for music, I recommend a sealed sub.

 

I should have said more. Most people will agree that Zu speakers have a sound/voicing that is unique. I have known a few people that love the "Zu sound" and have tried to match them with various subwoofers. From what I gather the very best matching is with Zu subwoofers followed by Rel subwoofers. After listening to many Zu speakers, I agree that Zu subwoofers are the definitive match with Zu speakers. The problem with the Zu subwoofers is that they are costly.

 

bought the get better sound book....... will probably just pull the trigger on the undertone.

 

From my friend and mentor Dr. Floyd Toole. It's worth a glance for the pearls of wisdom that might help your integration process...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...z5CQDA&usg=AFQjCNEgWRKytOlYYW4DDBe0esTP2uQO9Q

 

I own the JL f110 sub and I love it, with my B&W 805D's. Before I bought the JL Audio, I tried like hell to support SVS, who are literally one hour from my house, but they acted too weird when I attempted to set up an audition of their line at their facility (NOTE: which they were offering to do on their own website at that time), so I bought JL Audio instead! I just don't have the time anymore for the "games" that these businesses want to play anymore, as everything seems geared towards people with so much money, that they don't care if they get ripped off, or are disappointed in a purchase.