Any Chip Amp love here?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by 33na3rd, Aug 29, 2015.

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  1. 33na3rd

    33na3rd Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    SW Washington, USA
    I know that a lot of DIYers have built these, and companies like Clones Audio & Teddy Pardo have their share of fans. It's my understanding that some of the Jeff Rowland amps are Chip Amps too. (?)


    1 Does anyone here run a Chip Amp as their main amp?

    2 What are their strengths & weaknesses?

    3 How do Chip Amps sound compared to Class D?

    4 I've heard people compare the sound of Chip Amps to tubes. Is this true, or hyperbole?


    I like the small form factor.

    I have tried Class D, and while it did 90% of everything right, solo piano or massed strings didn't sound quite right. I realize that I haven't heard every Class D amp out there, or even the latest generation, so my past concerns may be unfounded.
     
  2. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    Define "chip amp"...

    -Bill
     
  3. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I had a 60 watt T-amp for a hot minute, thinking it would be a back up while my tube amp was int he shop. Didn't work out for me.
     
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  4. 33na3rd

    33na3rd Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    SW Washington, USA
    Hi Bill!

    An amplifier that uses Integrated Chips for the output devices, such as the LM3886, LM3875, or LM1875. Most of these chips seem to come from Texas Instruments.

    Clones Audio from Hong Kong, started out with their own gainclone of the 47 Labs unit, and now has a multiple models.
    http://www.clonesaudio.com/#!product/prd1/3323989111/55pm

    Teddy Pardo, from Israel-
    http://www.teddypardo.com/amplifiers/teddyampmb100.html

    It's my understanding that while these amps use an IC for the output, that they operate in class A/B using linear power supplies.

    I used to be of the mind that Integrated Circuits were evil, but there are too many nice sounding phono units out there that use IC's these days for me to cling to that belief.
     
  5. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    I was wondering if you were intending IC amps vs Class D, etc as you mentioned class D as being something different. Class AB SS amps, whether integrated or discreet, all have some similar characteristics. And, yes, I suppose that class D amps are a bit different in that regard, yet also share a lot of the same benefits. I have some favorite class AB designs, but most are really operated in class A at reasonable levels. I also like a few class D amps, and more in some applications than others. In a high end stereo application, as you are referring to, there are few designs that really shine and fewer still that can hold a candle to really good class A SS or vacuum tube amplifiers, even in AB. My experience with "chip amps" as you define them is limited to guitar amps and cheap "hi-fi", all of which sounded like hammered crap when compared to any respectable audio brand's offerings. Back in the day, there were a lot of receivers and integrated amps, probably even quite a few power amplifiers that used IC packages as outputs, and which sounded rather nice. As you might expect, none were exceptional but some sounded a lot better than others. I recall some old Fisher receivers in particular that were listenable and to my surprise had these devices in them:
    [​IMG]
    One of the more common and better sounding was the Sanyo STK0080. Most of these available now are chinese knock-offs. I would expect the specs on the chips that you listed to be "better" but the specs don't always tell the whole tale when it comes to the resulting sound. For instance, I often prefer vacuum tube amplifier sound and yet they measure horribly by comparison to some really bad sounding SS stuff. Go figure...
    -Bill
     
  6. 33na3rd

    33na3rd Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    SW Washington, USA
    Bill, Hammered Crap would be a great name for a band!

    I like tubes too, Bill.

    But I had some tube mishaps gang up on me all at once, and it shook me a bit. I'll probably go down that road again, but it is interesting seeing what else is out there!
     
  7. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
  8. João

    João Active Member

    Location:
    Lisboa - Portugal
    I am currently using a small chinese SMSL SA-S3 (Tripath chip) as my main amp. This thing is a marvel, it's all I can say. It defies all dogma about audiophile amps, it's very clear sounding without being harsh while running on a small switching power supply. The beautiful midrange makes listening to Coltrane and Miles even better. I bought it as a temporary solution when I moved to another country and in the end it was much better than the amp I bought to replace it (Pioneer A6), that it stayed in the system. Why companies insist in sticking to class AB when they could have smaller, more power efficient amps sounding this good, I don't know.
     
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  9. shadowlord

    shadowlord Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austria
    i put my spare SMLS SA-S3 in my main system during the repair of my cambridge audio one and i was in awe what that little amp was capable.
     
  10. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Used to own one of these in the 80s :

    [​IMG]

    It sounded fantastic. One day I pulled the cover and there were chips instead of transistors in the output section. They don't make it this good anymore though
     
  11. Burt

    Burt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kirkwood, MO
    Assuming you mean an LM3875 or similar linear IC based unit, I think they are good as DIY products for experience building but the prices of commercial ones seem ridiculous to me. They are very useful components for a variety of applications.
     
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  12. Burt

    Burt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kirkwood, MO
    If it says Darlington Power Pack, we can infer it wasn't so much an IC as an array of power transistors pre-configured as Darlingtons. Such products could have given pretty good results, as opposed to the 70s and 80s amp modules, which stunk on ice.
     
  13. Bathory

    Bathory 30 yr Single Malt, not just for breakfast anymore

    Location:
    usa
    Chip amps, hell yes. Sunfire signature amp is a chip amp, as is the sanders magtech if I'm not mistaken, sure they have a toroidal transformer, but they each have rows and rows of sanken, or the motorola chips, Unless I'm totally off base? I am currently enjoying my carver sunfire signature, such an effortless amp, and the magtech is on my purchase list this year, or early 2016. Good stuff
     
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  14. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    I don't like them. Less likely to be repairable when they get old. Discrete transistors for me or tubes.
     
  15. Burt

    Burt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kirkwood, MO
    Well, if the IC goes bad and no more are obtainable, you are in pretty much the same shape you are on on a discrete transistor amp if transistors go and no exact functional equivalents are available. But the more popular chip amps are as likely to be available in the foreseeable future as are most popular bipolar and FET outputs or more so. You can always stash a tube of the parts away for future use , put them in a sealed static bag and they will keep a long time.
     
  16. phred

    phred Forum Resident

    Chip amps? often called "T" amps?
    If in understand the definition correctly
    Lower power consumption, cheap and small form factor

    Not my thing, lack control in the bass - possibly due to modest power.
    Cheap and cheerful - you get what you pay for, music wise no more.
     
  17. PineBark

    PineBark formerly known as BackScratcher

    Location:
    Boston area
    I built my GainClone based on an LM3875 premium kit from Audio Sector, using a toroidal transformer and massive heatsinking. The sound quality is great, just shy of tube amps in imaging, but unlike the tubes it has dead quiet background. With no signal playing, I can put my ear right up to the speaker drivers, and I don't hear a thing. It' s like the power isn't even on (but it is). That lack of noise makes it well suited to nearfield listening.
     
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  18. Drew

    Drew Senior Member

    Location:
    Grand Junction, CO
    I realize there were commercial amplifiers built around monolithic integrated circuits in the 1980's and 1990's, but I believe the phrase "chip amp" really came into vogue in the early 2000's with the release of the 47 labs Gaincard. This amp used a LM1875 chip inside. It cost $4000. It was generally given positive reviews by Stereophile, 6moons, tnt-audio.com, the usual sites.

    Some of Jeff Rowlands Concentra amps were built around the same chip ten years ago.

    The chip itself costs a couple of bucks from Mouser.com. You can go on Amazon and buy kits using this chip for less than $25.

    After listening to 3.5 watt Bottlehead 2A3 paramour SET kit for several years I bread boarded circuits using the LM1875 and LM3885 and listened to them quite extensively. They're OK. I might even consider them high end audio with system matching. Never in a million years would I pay $4000 or $2000 or even $1000 for one.

    There is a subsection of diyaudio.com that has a lot of tweaks for DIY chip amps. I've tried a few. Some sound excellent. But it seems like there is much less chatter over there compared to 10 years ago.

    I don't have any experience with Class D or Class T. I'd like to gain some but I just don't have the time.

    I started a thread in this forum 10 years ago asking if anyone was familiar with Gaincards and Gainclones and chip amps and didn't get a single response.

    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/has-anyone-here-heard-a-sakura-systems-gaincard-amp.44919/



    Just for the record the amplifier I've been listening to for the last couple of years is a slightly modified version of this schematic:

    http://redcircuits.com/Page1.htm

    To me it sounds more relaxed and has a better tonality than any of the amps I built from a LM1875 or LM3885 chip. I do not use an equalizer of any type in my system.
     
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  19. Drew

    Drew Senior Member

    Location:
    Grand Junction, CO
    I forgot all about that site. I came really close to buying a circuit board from this guy years ago. I suspect your little home built amp sounds better than half the amps that are owned by the people in this forum. Is it the best sounding amplifier you can buy? Of course not. But without reservation I'd challenge anyone to demonstrate a better sounding system for the price you paid.
     
  20. 33na3rd

    33na3rd Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    SW Washington, USA

    No, the Chip Amps that I'm referring to are like the one's that BackScratcher refers to in post # 17, and Drew refers to in post #18. The Gaincards, and GainClones are class A/B amps that use a linear power supply, as opposed to the SMPS power supplies that most conventional Class D amps use.
     
  21. 33na3rd

    33na3rd Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    SW Washington, USA
    Thank you!

    Thank you!
     
  22. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Transistors often can be substituted if necessary as can tubes. With tubes, some rewiring or socket changes can be done. And said amplifier can play music again. Some of these Chip Amps, STK, and Darlingtons can't be substituted around. Meaning amplifier is bricked unless you get lucky and can source replacements. When those on the forums buy a chip amp you love, buy replacements of these IC blocks. You may well need them in the future. Get yours while available.
     
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