When did jazz bassists start to play in the foreground? (And any influence from John Entwistle?)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by head_unit, Aug 29, 2015.

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  1. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    I'm just curious about this. In the 50s, rock bassists were pretty much dum dum dum background, like the drummers. Then Keith Moon and John Entwistle came and suddenly drums and bass could be lead instruments. I'm wondering if it was really their influence that opened up rock drums and bass playing, or if there were others at the time.

    I also wonder what happened in the jazz side-I would not count myself an expert but I've listened to a lot of jazz, and it seems to follow similar eras: mostly background playing with occasional fills or solos. Then somehow you get to Jaco Pastorius. Did Moon and Entwistle have any influence however indirectly to the jazz world? Or who :)p) "liberated" those instruments? (OK, Gil Evans has some funky lead instrument in "Le Nevada" on Out Of The Cool-bassoon? Trombone? but that was a kind of freak exception I think).
     
  2. bluesbro

    bluesbro Forum Hall of Shame

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    DC
    I think Jimmy Blanton had something to do about it
     
  3. ShockControl

    ShockControl Bon Vivant and Raconteur!

    Location:
    Lotus Land
    Agreed. Bass and drums were featured instruments in jazz well before the Who formed.
     
  4. pbuzby

    pbuzby Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, US
    Scott LaFaro with Bill Evans in 1961 was a big influence in this regard.
     
  5. Roger Thornhill

    Roger Thornhill Senior Member

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    Ilford, Essex, UK
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  6. PsychGuy

    PsychGuy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Albuquerque
    How about some Slam Stewart ... bass in your face. Nice.

     
  7. pbuzby

    pbuzby Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, US
    It is also worth mentioning Jack Bruce, one of the few 60's rock stars who had a strong background in jazz, and influenced other rock bassists in taking up more of a lead role.
     
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  8. Splungeworthy

    Splungeworthy Forum Rezidentura

    I don't know when it started, but I'm sure glad Stanley Clarke did.
     
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  9. jfire

    jfire Forum Resident

    Location:
    Missoula
    I strongly second Jimmy Blanton. His 1940s bass-piano duets with Duke Ellington were groundbreaking and, no doubt, inspired Mingus and other bassists to follow.

     
  10. Surely you've heard Kind Of Blue, Paul Chambers' bass carries arguably the most famous riff in jazz on 'So What?' That was back in 1958. But yes, Blanton was probably the game changer with Ellington. Sh!t happened before rock you know.
     
  11. Archtop

    Archtop Soft Dead Crimson Cow

    Location:
    Greater Boston, MA
    Great viddy; thanks for posting. As far as I know, Dolphy would never return to the U.S. from that tour. He would die just over two months later. He went into a diabetic coma in Germany and when the doctors were informed that he was a jazz musician, they assumed drug overdose. His life could have been saved so easily.

    I guess this version of the story is disputed, but in any case, a tragic loss at age 36.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2015
  12. J.A.W.

    J.A.W. Music Addict

    Last edited: Aug 29, 2015
  13. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    Ah yes! Sigh. I had hoped to see him sometime-I felt he did some really interesting stuff-but it was not to me.

    And interesting to find some jazz bass predecessors. Makes me wonder if Bruce had any inspiration from Entwistle, or Entwistle from any jazz predecessors. Well, we can't ask 'em now?

    As for Paul Chambers' bass, your post spurred me to put it on right now. I'd say it's a neat bass part so far, but still "old school" in the sense of still most slow and repetitive. Not to take anything away from a nice bass part, but it's hardly "My Generation" is my point. What I'm looking for is more in-your-face. I'll check out the clip above and the Ellington thing too.

    Now what is popping in my head is footage of Hendrix and Band of Gypsies, with Billy Cox kind of noodling around on the bass-also a different and new style methinks (maybe not new with him, and actually somewhat in the vein of this Paul Chambers bit which is nicely bouncing around my head as I type...hmm, maybe I'll start liking Kind Of Blue after all this time as a Philistine...:yikes:)
     
  14. PHILLYQ

    PHILLYQ Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
    I think Billy Cox had a lot more of a funk thing in his playing than a lot of other players in the rock vein.
     
  15. PHILLYQ

    PHILLYQ Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
    Jaco considered himself an R'n'B bassist.
    Moon and Entwistle had zero influence on jazz AFAIK.
     
  16. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    Blanton
     
  17. Gregster

    Gregster Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Hello,

    Maybe when fusion became more popular, the mainstream Jazz folks could then appreciate more, the value of electricity...Since Rock n'Roll embraced both the electric guitar & Fenders Precision bass with massive success, it may have been seen as cross-breeding by the Jazz people if taken up earlier.

    We have to remember that apart from microphones, little electricity was used by Jazz, with most instrumentation remaining acoustic. Fender even deigned a Jazz bass for the market, that was really only appreciated by Rock artists.

    To answer your question, I'd say that once Jazz allowed the bass to be plugged-in & amplified, it most certainly came into the foreground !!!

    John Entwistle was an amazing interpreter of Pete's music, & had an incredible technique for playing bass guitar. And even though the record "Who are you" had many complex musical passages leaning towards some Jazz-influence, this does not make him a jazz-bassist, or an influence towards it within jazz IMHO.

    The "trick" with playing jazz-lines on a bass, is to know where the beat "1" is, & to sound the root note or 5th on "1". Then you generally sound the notes within the chord or set up & play-the-changes. ( Key Changes ). John Entwistle played lines that were near solo's at times, but they were in truth solid musical backings to the given tune.

    Cheers,

    Gregster
     
  18. I would take a step back and look at what you seem to be doing, which is trying to fit your appreciation for Entwhistle into some historical/musical continuum where somehow he took the meagre gruel of jazz bass lines and turned it into something wonderful in a rock idiom.
    Why even bother look at Chambers' line on a modal jazz composition 7 years before 'My Generation' and assume any direct lineage? You'd be better off listening to what Miles was doing from In A Silent Way onwards to find your 'missing link'. Miles hired Dave Holland, an accomplished young bassist from London, for his 70's music, which was more accomodating to rock stylistically. Check out Bitches Brew and all that came after. Though I doubt Entwhistle would have made too much difference to that music.
     
  19. monotubevibe

    monotubevibe Forum Resident

    Location:
    L.A.
    As far as drums go, cats like Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich made drums a lead instrument before the first notes of Rock n Roll were ever strummed.

    Slam Stewart and Blanton have already been mentioned for taking the bass into the foreground.

    I think the idea that The Who somehow influenced Jazz rhythm sections is wishful thinking. Rock music is great. Jazz is great. Why the need to connect them in this way?
     
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  20. Comet01

    Comet01 Forum Resident

    I agree totally with these thoughts.
    The concept that Entwistle's technique deeply influenced jazz bassists who came after him: quite a stretch.

    The world is easier to evaluate when you are not wearing Who-colored glasses.:winkgrin:
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
  21. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    In '41 Ellington built features like "Jack the Bear" and recorded duets that spotlighted Jimmy Blanton. Mingus built on that in the '50s taking the bass out of a strictly support and rhythm role. By the early '60s you had virtuoso players like Scott LaFaro and David Izenzon playing in trio setting with cats like Bill Evans and Ornette Coleman and basically as full frontline players. Or like Steve Swallow in Giuffre's trio or something. Or Gary Peacock with Albert Ayler. By the first couple of years of the '60s the role of the bass in the jazz combo has been fully freed from just playing supporting walking lines. I don't see or hear an iota of influence of John Entwistle on jazz.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
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  22. Benn Kempster

    Benn Kempster Who else?

    Location:
    Tring, UK
    Its the first time I've ever heard that Keith or John may have influenced jazz. It'd be great to think that jazz musicians saw the influence and then took back some of what John developed in terms of harmonics and his own technique; in fact, Les Paul said to me in 2001 that there was no better bassist in history than John and that his influence would span all genres.
     
  23. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    A lot of the great rock musicians were jazzmen earning a paycheck, like Motown's Funk Brothers, so there is that connection between rock and roll and jazz.

    I suspect that were we to put people to the polygraph, we'd find that a lot more or our favorite music was actually performed by a jazz musician slipped in after the band went home. I believe one of my favorite college albums, IN MY TRIBE, was largely performed by session musicians.

    I remember an interview with the producer, Peter Asher, who apparently often hired jazz musicians to play what was credited to band members in the liner notes. His point wasn't that the rock musicians weren't capable, but were often less formally trained and would consume very expensive studio time trying to deliver what he wanted.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
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  24. From another Who fan.. You can bet it'll be the last.
     
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  25. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    The bass is also prominent on Dave Brubeck's Time Out album
     
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