Tannoys: Vintage vs. Modern

Hey I had a question for the Tannoy users out there. I have been "Tannoy curious" for a while, and wanted some opinions on what might potentially work best in my setup. My power amp is a beautiful Marantz 8b, so I was thinking a nice Tannoy match would be something like a 15" MG with this amp. After some research, it looks like for about the same money a pair of Tannoy Turnberry SE's could be had. I am attracted to the build quality of the Turnberry cabinets, but also like the "period-correctness" of the 15" MG (which I would most likely need to build cabinets for). Cabinets aside, which do you think would be a better musical match to my 8b?

 

Yes, I think you have a great potential choice. Will match well with your Marantz 8b amplifier. Period correct, very nice synergy.

 

If I had an 8b I would look to vintage Tannoy- preferably 16ohm 15" Reds

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I know reds are just above the Golds in the Tannoy pecking order - why would they be the best match for the 8b over the others?

 

I believe the pecking order from bottom to top is gold red silver then black.

 

Regardless of the amp I've always felt a newer designed speaker will in most cases outperform and older ones, new technologies better testing equipment and facilities etc.

 

The Reds were designed to be used with tube amps - I believe most if not all Reds are 15 or 16ohm. The Golds were introduced during the beginning of the transistor era and most (I believe) are 8 ohm- they did make a 15 ohm version though. I'm sure the 8b would be happier driving a higher impedance speaker.

 

Great info, thanks. Looks like I need to keep saving my pennies for the Reds.

 

If you can find Golds with 15/16 ohm they would be a good match too. I'm just weighing in as I pretty much gave up on finding a suitable tube amp for my modern Tannoy DMT 15 IIs... even a Rogue 100W tube amp w/ 4 ohm taps did not do as good of a job controlling the drivers as my 300W Bryston 4B SST. Even though my Tannoys can play plenty loud with about any tube amp they don't sound that great - tizzy highs, and slow, bloated bass etc... but they really sing and sound effortless w/ SS power.

 

I'd say that was the rarity/collectable order, but I doubt you'll find too many arguing for the sonic superiority of the Black over the Silver or Red. As mentioned above the Gold represents the point where transistor amps were factored-in, so they are nominally 8 Ohm rather than 16 and very marginally less efficient too. According to quite a few people who have had a chance to really assess Tannoys the 12" Silver is apparently 'The One' as it has a very light cone that works very well with it's simple crossover (I'm not sure the bass unit in Silvers even has and crossover as such, it may be direct connected, it's certainly simple). I'd love to properly a selection of vintage Tannoy drivers though I doubt I could afford to move up much! I've only direct personal experience in my own system of 15" Monitor Golds. I'm listening to them right now in fact. A lovely pair of speakers.

I suspect which are best depends a lot on what you want to do/how you want to drive them, e.g. do you want to listen to jazz, classical etc at modest levels or be blown out of the room with heavy metal at eardrum-removing volume. I'm very much in the former camp and for my requirements Golds are anything but hard to drive, mine are currently on the end of a ten watt Leak Stereo 20 tube amp, but I've little doubt it would prefer Silvers or Reds given the choice.

There are other ways of looking at Tannoy history. First is the company itself; the Blacks, Silvers, Reds and Golds were all made in London by the company owned by Guy R Fountain. Many view these as "real Tannoys". As I understand it Tannoy then changed hands and moved to Scotland and the HPD was born. Still a lovely speaker, but they have foam surrounds so will unquestionably need reconing (be skeptical of people just replacing the surrounds, a recone is the proper way to do Tannoys).

Yet another way of dividing Tannoys is between the pro and domestic. During Guy Fountain's life they were one and the same. Decca, EMI etc all used, Blacks, Silvers, Reds, Golds etc and usually in Tannoy's own cabs, if not in Lockwood cabs (which are rather better in most cases). In the mid to late '70s the ranges split with models like the Arden, Devon, Berkley etc for the home and Super Red Monitors, Super Gold Monitors etc for studios. Confusingly these have nothing to do with the earlier Monitor Reds, Monitor Golds etc and are based on a entirely different 38xx driver. This division has existed ever since though now Tannoy sadly seem to have abandoned the serious studio monitor field.

I can't comment too much about the current Prestige Range. I have heard both Canterbury SEs and Turnberrys, but in unfamiliar surroundings and whilst there was something very impressive indeed about the former neither left me unsatisfied with mine aside from aestheitcs (mine are in rather ugly DIY cabs built to York plans).

 

PS When considering Blacks, Silvers, Reds, Golds even HPDs it's worth pointing out they are far more similar than they are different. They all have the same basic basket, AlNiCo magnet, the same compression driver, the same basic 'pepper pot' horn design. The real differences are in the cone and crossover.

 

15" Golds will sound nice with your 8b. Great idea to build new cabs for them.

They will sound far better if you build new crossovers (to original spec) and install audio grade binding posts.

Original Tannoy crossovers are not very good. Parts quality is lower, and those roll off/energy switches and screw terminals for speaker cables introduce distortion. You will get much, much clearer and more extended sound if you build new crossovers and use high quality parts.

Keep the original crossovers, should you decide the speakers in future. The footprint of a new crossover will be about 4 times the size of the original, since coils and caps are much bigger than the original ones.

 

If it was me I would go for the latest Prestige GR models which are much improved in sound and build. Vintage tannoy drive units can be fine in modern cabinets with redesigned crossovers but original stock Tannoy models are not so good plus over the top prices.

 

I'd buy the Turnberry speakers. Better cabs and the speakers are new with properly sized cabinets. The trouble with Tannoy speakers and their fans is the amount of misinformation and nostalgia surrounding them. The fans are mostly vintage aficionados and who deny the superiority of the more modern products. They also primarily claim to prefer or at least talk about and seek out the larger drive units. The serious collectors appreciate the original x-overs with their autoformers and while some do use updated and crazy expensive components in custom x-overs, they would never trash the originals. One of the largest troubles with the "15 is better" mindset is that they don't often realize just how massive the cabinets really need to be for these to produce any deep bass. The modern 10" in its proper cabinet will likely go deeper and look better. Plus, it has the adjustable crossover right up front. Place - adjust - forget.

That said, I sold a pair of stock 12" Reds in some fairly large vintage cabinets to a forum member here who uses a Marantz 8b and the pairing sounded very good with SACD source and even with very poor environmental placement.
-Bill

 

Thats the main draw for me on the Turnberrys - the plug and play capability. No cabinets or crossovers to build and tinker with (or have someone else more skilled than I build). Sound and synergy are priority however so it would be a road I'd be willing to go down if it led to a magical match with the 8b.
I won't be blasting metal on them (I have AR9's for that) - but I won't be babying them with classical and small jazz ensemble music either. I like bass, volume and the visceral impact that only a big floor stander can do.

 

Assuming you have arrived at a shortlist of two options of say a pair of vintage 12" or 15" Monitor Golds in decently sized cabs and a pair of Turnberrys I'd try very, very hard to hear both. They are just different things IMO. Exceptionally few speakers do the real 'effortless' thing of a proper big Tannoy in a large cab, and you may find it hard to live without once you've tried it. I've never personslly heard that 'thing' from the smaller modern models, though they are certainly very good indeed.

FWIW I've ended up really loving huge speakers and also tiny speakers (I also have a pair of JR149s, an LS3/5A derivative). It's the ones in the middle I struggle with. I have found big vintage Tannoys an exceptionally hard speaker to upgrade from. Sure, everything everyone says is wrong with them is true, but somehow it just doesn't matter as what they get right really matters to me and is eye-wateringly expensive to achieve with modern kit. They are just believable. A few years ago I decided I was sick of fiddling about aligning compression drivers, recapping crossovers etc and that I wanted a neat clean modern plug and play solution so I actually sold the pair of Golds I had at the time. I bought a pair of Harbeth SHL5s, a very highly rated 'modern' speaker that do certainly deserve much of the praise heaped upon them. They lasted about 3 weeks until I went Tannoy shopping again! I can't quite explain it but that thing I love about huge old Tannoys just wasn't there anymore. I'm not done yet, I do want to get some really serious cabs built at some point. Maybe even build them into brick corner units Gilbert Briggs style, but that's a whole other subject!

 

Thanks for your impressions Tony. It would be ideal if I could listen to all of the Tannoy's in question but that will be very challenging. I think I've ultimately decided to go vintage with all of its cabinet and crossover building headaches, if I went with the Turnberrys I know I'd always wonder if I wasn't missing out on some "real" vintage 15" Tannoy voodoo. Incidentally I've been on a Gilbert Briggs kick recently, I currently have my 8b hooked up to a beautiful pair of Wharfedale w90s and its is a match made in heaven. I have some 15ohm Wharfedale SFB/3's on the way as well to try. I figure if there's an English speaker that can de throne the Wharfedales, it's the Tannoys but who knows!

 

I run a pair of vintage 12" Monitor Gold's. I'm an incurable tinkerer, so I've changed things around quite a bit, but I use the original unchanged crossovers. I've added a pair of big horn loaded cabinets originally made for 15" Tannoy (an early pair of reds, oh man did they sound good, not mine though) and something else that really makes them sing. I've also added some super tweeters to 'modernize' the sound a bit (the tweets are older than the Golds!). I love the sound and could not imagine a satisfactory upgrade.

That being said, the 8b can handle a modern speaker like the Turnberrys and I'm sure the results would be stunning.

 

Biased opinion here, as I love Tannoys. I generally prefer Golds and HPDs but really never met a Tannoy dual concentric I didn't like -- unless really mismatched with the room and/or amplificaiton. Recognize all their faults but couldn't care less. Tony L described it beautifully above; I share very much the same sentiment.

Putting together the information you supplied in this thread, your music preferences, and the rest of your equipment from your profile page, I would venture a blunt guess that you absolutely should go for the big 15" Tannoys in large, wide-baffle cabinets. Set them up right and you just might be delighted with the result. Whether to go for the Golds, Reds, or the HPDs: one important factor would be just how big your room is, as it places certain restrictions on the choice of amplification. Everything's a compromise of some sort, you just have to choose which kind you favor. If your room is large, you have the most choice in your selection -- they will all work well when amplified accordingly; at that point it's really just about the presentation and TONE. Small room? Large Tannoys do work in small rooms but Golds and Reds will do it better than HPDs, and the smaller the room the more the compromise. In small rooms I'd stay away from the later series ferrite-driven Tannoys in the typical undersized cabinets (or any cabinets). All large Tannoy dual concentrics love current but whereas Reds and Golds can be used to great satisfaction with less of it -- think low-power single-ended tube amps, for instance -- starting with HPDs the need for higher power (and, likely, push-pull) tube amp or solid-state becomes more apparent. Turnberrys are definitely in the latter camp as far as amplification -- pairing them with 8 watts of single-ended power is a recipe for the lack of bass, shrill highs, and altogether not representative of the wholesome presenation the Tannoys are adored for by many to begin with. The 8B MIGHT be a VERY good match. But the speaker itself is quite a bit different from the larger old models. 10" driver on the narrow-er baffle results in a rather different presentation regardless of everything else -- in my opinion. I listened to Turnberry's only twice, but with different amps, and while it's a Tannoy alright, I personally did not enjoy them nearly as much as I do the large Golds or HPDs. From the modern Prestige series I have really enjoyed the Canterburys (SE) but I have to say that if you are after squeezing the true potential from them and having maximum control, they, too, are best with good chunk of solid power it seems, and to me that's where they lose the tone that I am after. I most enjoyed them powered by a good old Mc225 -- a setup which some would consider compromised.

Your 8B will easily handle any of these, if not be an overkill on Golds or Reds if your room is smaller but chances are you might end up preferring a different amp anyway, even possibly from your stash of EL84-based ones It just depends. If I was facing your choice and I had a medium room and I really wanted to utilize my 8B, I would go for some HPDs... Chances also are very high that in that same room with the same amp the turnberrys would be great too. But different... I'd start with the speaker, as it will dictate the amplification needs. With an 8b and a Tannoy, however, you are not making too much of a risky bet plus all those El84 amps as backup I think you're in good shape...

The voicing/matching thing is just so personal. As is what you care for in a speaker in general. I am making assumptions here looking at your gear and music. It appears you like big full sound, and possibly loud... Big presentation and tone. The big Tannoys with tubes do exactly that... Unless you mismatch them, which is particularly easy to do with the ferrite magnet ones in small cabs to a point of them driving you out of the room. Reds, Golds, and HPDs (large ones, 10-inchers not as much) are more forgiving...

 

Whilst I've read most of Gilbert Briggs' excellent books I've heard very few of his speakers. I've always wanted to hear SFBs so will be very interested to hear what you think of those. I just googled W90s as I wasn't familiar with them and they look amazing! I suspect you already have that 'effortless' thing I'm on about!

Agreed. I've tried quite a few tube amps with my Monitor Golds over the years (usually friends bringing them round for a listen) and to my ears they seem to prefer push-pull to single ended and seem to want about 10 watts absolute minimum. At one extreme I tried a Decware Zen, a lovely little 2 watt SET, but really not up to the job here (sounds great into La Scalas though!), even a huge pair of Coincident 300B monoblocks seemed to struggle, so it's watts, not sheer weight/quality of output transformers that's needed. I had great results with a little Prima Luna Prologue 2 stuffed with EL34s (which I prefer to the KT88s that amp can also use) - I ran that amp for many years. I now use a completely restored/rebuilt Leak Stereo 20, so 10 watts of EL84 a channel, and that's enough for me, but maybe not for loud rock in a big room. I suspect the Marantz 8B will be an absolutely perfect match, a better take on the little Prima Luna I liked so much. Monitor Golds also work really well with solid state so don't force your hand too much when it comes to amp choice, but in my experience the Leak is the smallest amp I've heard sound really good into them so I'd be reluctant to look at anything less powerful than that.

 

I agree that the MGs want at least 10 watts. My single ended tube amp is about 16 watts/channel, and my 15" MGs sound insanely nice. As Tony L said above, effortless and believable.

But, again, that's based on putting the MGs in large, custom cabs, and building a new crossover with high grade coils, caps, resistors, wiring and binding posts. 15" MGs, in their original Belvedere cabs with original crossovers have many, many faults. Sloppy bass, rolled off highs and an overall grainy sound. The drivers are outstanding; it's the crossover parts, switches and cabs that cause all their shortcomings.

 

You will be very pleased with the final product! Take your time and build nice cabinets, and buy the best crossover parts you can afford.

 

What sort of cabs have you ended up with? My first pair were in some remarkably well built/completely over-engineered DIY corner cabs based losely on Lancaster dimensions, so around the 75L sealed box size. I really liked them. My current cabs are a very accurate clone of rectangular Yorks in everything but finish, i.e. just as flimsy as the real ones, but ugly too! I can't decide which direction to go cabinet wise so haven't done anything for a long time. Here's a pic of one of mine:



They do have grilles which I use as it helps stop the driver cones colour fading any more.

 

Beautiful cabs! And nice pic. I'm trying to upload a pic to this thread, but don't seem to have the option?

My cabs are just over 300L. 18.5" W, 21.5" D, 49.5" H. I braced the inside of them to make them rigid, which helps tighten the sound. As you can see, the crossover is mounted outside the cabinet. The connecting wire is audiophile. I bypassed the four pin connector and soldered the wires directly to the terminal post for each driver.