Tannoys: Vintage vs. Modern

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by crestwood23, Aug 30, 2015.

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  1. Paul K

    Paul K Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I have never tried my 15" MGs using the 4 ohm tap on my 240.
    Would there be a point in trying it?
     
  2. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    Definitely a beautiful set of cabs. That's the hard part, really. All of the Tannoy DC drivers, 10" and up, like a really big cabinet. They just don't have good bass extension without it. Case in point, the lowest frequency extension in the Tannoy prestige line (with the exception of the fully horn loaded and behemoth Westmenster) was delivered by a 12" driver in a cab larger than the 15" Canterbury. It did that by increasing cabinet volume and by trading only 1db of efficiency for greater LF extension.

    I actually have a pair of 10" and a pair of 8" Tannoy DC drivers here as well as crossovers that I have been meaning to do something with. The trouble is the cabinets. I just don't have any space where I am now for the large floorstanding cabs that it takes to really get them to dig deep. The best sounding Tannoy speakers, IME are the new Dimension series with much extended and controlled response. They use an additional bass driver to get them to deliver the lowest octaves in reasonably sized enclosures, which are most beautifully finished and way more rigid than any vintage model cab.
    -Bill
     
  3. John76

    John76 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    How low must you go? My DMT 15's spec out at 38 HZ +-3db. There's not much normal music being played below that.
     
  4. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    Those are pretty big speakers. 40hz isn't that low for a speaker that size. The older Tannoy drivers are even harder to get to go that low simply due to their age and the condition of the materials at this point. I take your point that it is enough for most folks to be happy with, but a more "audiophile acceptable" Tannoy hi-fi speaker design with a 15" driver should go down to around 30hz. The Canterbury does that, but again, a 12" Tannoy in the Yorkminster can reach down to 23hz in its larger cabinet. So imagine what the 15 can do in an even larger cabinet. The Westminster will reach the subsonic level of 20hz. Basically, I don't have the space, nor would I want a pair of cabs the size of refrigerators in my listening room. ;) The new Definition series Tannoy speakers can go down to 30hz in a much smaller, much more narrow and beautiful cabinet. They also have much better HF extension. basically, my experience is that you just don't get the same levels of satisfactory bass from the larger Tannoy drivers in "smaller" cabinets. These new Definition series speakers do so by incorporating an additional woofer in one case and by careful redesign and limiting the driver diameter to 10" in another. I know everyone has their own Tannoy fetish, but mine has been trying to actually get deep bass from a driver that seems to be able to do it! I cheated and used passive radiators in one set of prototypes that I made. I have basically just given up as the cost of cabinets is prohibitive compared to justt buying the finished products.
    -Bill
     
  5. crestwood23

    crestwood23 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    North Jersey
    The specs on those Definitions are impressive for sure! I know it shouldn't matter, but I vastly prefer the old school monkey coffin and tweed of the other models to the uber streamlined asymmetrical cabinets of the Definition series. Silly I know, but part of the appeal and charm is in the "British-ness" of those stout clunky cabinets.
     
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  6. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Crestwood

    Is that avatar of Donald Trump as a high school student?

    I really liked the new Canterbury and Kensington SE that I've heard over the last while - even in bad massive open rooms they held my attention very well. They were in my runner up group but as another poster noted they seem a little fussier with certain tube/SET amps so perhaps they should consider offering 15 ohm versions in their new versions as apparently they did back in the day.

    One of the reasons I like Tannoy over most is their way of reproducing sound - I get that some people don't like it but I do - they're unique and they always seem to involve me and make me pay attention to them. I would kind of like to throw my 219IA 24 Watts SET on a set - the amp easily drives the KEF LS-50 which is 3.2 ohms and difficult to drive - the 219IA has transformers that weigh more than an entire Bryston amp. So it would be interesting. And another interesting thing about them is that you can place them near walls or corners even. That is a HUGE plus for someone like me living in Hong Kong (small apartments).

    Even this youtube clip they appear to sound really good. Turnberry



    I heard an older used pair of Tannoys as well and other than the froo froo audiophile BS of soundstaging the things dripped with tone and body and involvement. If I had the space here in HK that I had in Canada I would own a set of one of these Prestige series Tannoys.
     
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  7. Tony L

    Tony L Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    I'm far from convinced that believable bass is all to do with extension by any stretch, I suspect it's more to do with being able to displace a lot of air. I say this as a bass player with a fair amount of experience with different bass amps etc as well as from a hi-fi or studio perspective. Ideally I'm pretty sure I'd always take a big driver in a big box moving a short distance over a smaller one having to move a lot further. The smaller you go the more you seem to move away from the effortlessness of really large speakers and towards what I've heard beutifully described as the 'small speaker fist punch bass' of little stand-mount speakers, which is a very different thing even if it does go surprisingly deep from a Hz perspective.
     
  8. phred

    phred Forum Resident

    The appeal of the big Tannoy duals somehow is stronger as we mature (Age if you wish to be crass and insensitive) they have faults but to those whos hearing may no longer be perfect they are involving and relaxing,
    For the mature (and others) who actually want to listen to the music and not their system the Tannoys are a great experience. There is none of the over fidelity high end boost that some of the audiofools seem to favour.
    (Happy to acknowledge they are not "perfect")
    Endorsing the need to feed the big dual Tannoys plenty of power.
    Yes they will make a noise on a flea amp but the bass will be recessed and flabby with the potential for the highs to harden up. There will be no imaging and you will be left wondering why so many people enjoy the Tannoy experience.
    I prefer mos fet amps. We have had good results with both McIntosh and Perreaux on Tannoy duals
    An audio colleague has had Canterbury and now has the Canterbury SE, to my ears they are both great with my MC2255, however the owner prefers the softer mushier soggier sound of either his 75w valve Mac or his 75w valve mono blocks.
    We ran his older Caterburys on an old (Tweaked) Perreaux 8000, there was something special about this combination, they were crisp, punchy and very enjoyable.
    If you want the more modern dual cones to sing put some real power up them. 250 or more watts will bring them alive.

    There was an earlier comment that the Tannoys should be re coned - not just the surrounds replaced, again I agree because the cones can become soft over the years.
    The standard cabinets are often under damped far from rigid and way too small - yet they can sound great.

    I have no great experience with the Black Silver Red or Gold series drivers but feel selecting from the HPD series onward may be a more cost effective and potentially rewarding introduction to the magic of the big Tannoys.

    The only pair of Tannoys I struggled with were SRMs - somehow they were just not musical. This pair may have been an exception but no matter what I tweaked they failed to get ones foot tapping. Clinical not involving.
     
  9. crestwood23

    crestwood23 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    North Jersey
    Why yes it is! The Donald and I are tight bros from way back when - I used to bully him in grade school - I gave him countless wedgies, wet-willes, dead-legs and purple-nurples - looks like he came out of it unscathed! :winkgrin:

    Wow if 75w monos produce mush, I am afraid my 35wpc 8b would not be up to the task. Sounds like my MC2300 might get along better with the Canterbury's and their modern brethren. I definitely prefer the sound of the 8b though, so I'm still thinking a 16ohm MG or red in a large cab would be the way to go. A few people here have mentioned the magic word - "TONE" - that is primarily what I am after and it is nice to hear the Tannoys apparently have it in spades. The 8b certainly does.
     
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  10. Beattles

    Beattles Senior Member

    Location:
    Florence, SC
    What can you tell me about Tannoy Eatons? I couldn't find any for sale but saw a pair listed near by.
     
  11. makarushka

    makarushka Forum Resident

    Location:
    sf bay
    Eatons are based on the 10" HPD driver. Should be a lovely speaker; I have not heard them but have owned the Cheviots and Devons, which are based on the 12" HPD315. The usual potential upgrades apply: rewire, possibly replace the caps, possibly bypass the controls, although the latter I never found beneficial to do on HPD speakers I've owned, only on the Golds. Surrounds may need refoaming since they are not cloth like the Golds, etc.

    One of my biggest audio-realted regrets: selling the Devons.
     
  12. Beattles

    Beattles Senior Member

    Location:
    Florence, SC
    Thanks. I would be interested if it was at least a 12" driver.
     
  13. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    The problem with new Tannoy Prestige gear is that until you hit the Kensington you aren't getting the real waveguide that made them famous. The Kensingtons sound great and I think compare favorably to MG15s and MG12s in good cabinets. It really depends on how much work you want to put in. As mentioned above the MGs and Reds really benefit from an overhaul and they definitely need a new cabinet to sound their best.

    Sound wise I've found the MGs to be a little less efficient but have better bass and an over better balanced sound then the Reds. Some people also prefer the 12 inch over the 15s and cite better clarity and dynamics.

    Personally I'd go for a pair of MG15s in good shape and build some nice GRF cabinets for them. Plenty of plans kicking around on the Yahoo Tannoy group. For about 4500.00 total you'll have a pair of speakers that will hold their own or best the Kensingtons. The problem you run into on forums like this are that you always run into people with an agenda trying to push the new gear.
     
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  14. tubesandvinyl

    tubesandvinyl Forum Resident

    $4,500 is about right. I'm in $5,000 with my MGs, new crossovers and cabinets.
     
  15. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Got rid of the Harbeth's you used to have? I recognize the room from previous pix of the Super HL5. Those amps you're running must be sublime with those drivers/cabs.
     
  16. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Don't kid yourself. There's a lot going on below 30Hz.
     
  17. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    This guy has one hell of a Tannoy dictionary put together over the years with all his experience with their drivers and enclosures, I can't recommend it enough if you're heavy into Tannoy, or just extremely cool, esoteric gear that's covered in-depth by someone who obviously knows his stuff:

    http://truefi.blogspot.ca/2015/03/the-tannoy-15-enclosure-for-enthusiast.html

    Click the "Tannoy Speakers" link on the left of the page for more.
     
    crestwood23 likes this.
  18. Tony L

    Tony L Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK

    Very interesting site. I love the look of his cabs, a really unusual design. I've still not decided what direction to go in when I get something better/more rigid built for my pair. Very envious of his Leak TL12.1 amps too, they are crazy rare and expensive these days.
     
  19. Tony L

    Tony L Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK

    Very interesting site. I love the look of his cabs, a really unusual design. I've still not decided what direction to go in when I get something better/more rigid built for my pair. Very envious of his Leak TL12.1 amps too, they are crazy rare and expensive these days.
     
  20. ToTo Man

    ToTo Man the band not the dog

    Location:
    Scotland, UK.
    I assume (or hope) that the Definition Series is a significant league ahead of the Revolution Signature line which I found to be extremely disappointing, producing either hollow and smeary bass (with ports open) or fast but non-existent bass (with ports bunged) and a HF which lacked both clarity and extension. I know there's a significant price difference between the two, but in a side-by-side test of both DC4 and DC6 Rev. Sigs. with my little Prestige Autograph Minis the difference was staggering. The Revolution Signature presented music through a grungy veil.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2015
  21. ToTo Man

    ToTo Man the band not the dog

    Location:
    Scotland, UK.
    EDIT - I now see that the Definition series is two lines above the Revolution, therefore my comments above are likely irrelevant. I would not expect the Definitions to present the same tonal colourations as the Revolutions, indeed they should be streets ahead.
     
  22. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    Hi,
    Yes, they are a much more advanced speaker design. The Revolution series was primarily intended for HT application although they sounded nice enough to best many hi-fi speaker designs. The Revolution Signature was basically the larger format driver (still only 6") in a more interestingly shaped and finished cabinet, probably with some small crossover upgrade. All of these have been superseded now. The new Revolution XT and Precision series are their replacements and have been getting very good reviews. I did have a set of the Revolution Signatures here and thought they sounded very good in a few systems here. their owners listened to quite a few speakers and selected them from the lot in that price range and are very happy with them. They have a large space and were not using a sub initially. I haven't heard back from them in a few years now to see if they added a sub but they were pleased with the performance as they were.

    The Revolution had models with 4" drivers as do the Autograph Mini and neither can have any real low frequency performance, so yes bass is either weak and odd or non-existent. I have heard many of the Tannoy 4" Dual Concentric speakers in both "full range" and 2.1 and 5.1 configurations. They are all intended to coupled with subs for LF extension and when they are crossed-over to relieve them of the LF duty, they sound excellent. They all take a long time to break-in before they loose some coarseness. I would also describe the Autograph Mini as have "no real bass" and yet it has top notch crossover components and wiring inside and also sounds very good when mated with a sub.

    The Definition series loudspeakers start with the smallest driver being an 8" driver. It might be said that this compact single driver 8" design, as well as the 4" drivers, are the most colored in the ranges due to their odd sizes. The 4" is of course too small to handle LF well and the 8" is a bit too big and slow to do the upper mid clarity as well as some other designs due to it also being loaded with the bass duties. The larger Definition speakers have an additional LF driver to make the designs much more efficient and dynamic full-range. The 10" versions are what I believe to be the best speakers for use in a typical home that Tannoy has ever produced. The DC10A uses AlNiCo magnets for both the LF and HF drive units and the Pepperpot wave guide,all of which the vintage Tannoy fans are proponents of. This and the traditional aluminum dome reduce HF extension to 22khz, which is still excellent for most speakers. The DC10Ti uses a titanium dome with a Tulip waveguide allowing it to reproduce frequencies out to 35khz. That might seem irrelevant to many but it does come along with significantly reduced HF distortions due to resonance and sounds sweet and effortless. This model and the 8" floorstanding version both also add addtional woofers for increased LF output.

    Tannoy states that its most advanced design is the Kingdom speaker, which I have never heard. It is not going to win any beauty contests. It features a 12" mid/HF Dual Concentric driver, a super tweeter that extends HF response to 61khz, and a 15" LF driver for bass down to 24hz. This speaker uses ferrite magnets for its drivers and does not have a Pepperpot style waveguide, and yet to the disappointment of many of the vintage sticklers, it is described by Tannoy as "The new Kingdom Royal 12in Dual Concentric TM driver is the most advanced coaxial HF/LF driver Tannoy has ever developed.". Lots more technical detail on their website of course. But one thing that this most advanced design by Tannoy also does is to acknowledge my findings that the largest driver isn't automatically the best driver and that their old technology is not superior to their new technology.

    I have also owned and heard more than a few vintage Tannoy systems. So I have a very fair reference for comparison, especially since I have even compared the old and new speakers side by side in the same systems and with using various amplifiers. One interesting thing that you will see from vintage enthusiasts is their lack of agreement on what sounds best. Many prefer the 15" unit vs many that prefer the 12" unit, and few can agree on what vintage of these units is best with some preferring the old Red stuff and others the more modern HPD style. Then once they find the driver size and vintage that they prefer, they cannot agree on amplification, with some preferring low powered tube amps and others high powered solid state amps. Not that I would expect that audio buffs would ever agree on everything, but it is somewhat odd to find so much variation in what people like when limited to only one brand and style of driver. It might be due to the fact that so many were made over so many years and people have the stongest opinions on what they have had the most experience with. There is also a lot of sentimental value associated with vintage "finds" and projects that has a tendency to alter the perspective of the owner, even to the point of refusing to acknowledge advancements in technology.
    -Bill
     
    ToTo Man likes this.
  23. kfringe

    kfringe Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Oregon Coast
    Yeah…. His conclusions about Tannoy are a little wacky. This is fun reading, but keep a family-sized salt spoon around.
     
  24. kfringe

    kfringe Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Oregon Coast
    Wow. Let's bust this myth right now, shall we?

    The Pepperpot is not, was not, and never will be the thing that made Tannoy famous. Magnet structure, easy placement, cone profiles, and about a zillion other things had a lot to do with it. For instance, the Kennsington and the DC10A may sport a pepperpot, but they also have alnico magnets. Which is more important, do you think?

    No. Don't answer. It's not a serious question.

    It's good to remember that the Tulip waveguide was a response to some nasty problems with the Pepperpot -- starting with performance shortcomings in the treble and ending with the fact that at least nine out of ten Pepperpots you see were drilled by someone who seems to have been drunk at the time. The Tulip gets points for a reduced honk, easier crossover, and higher extension. It loses points for losing some sweetness in the honk range and not being fetish-y enough for the fetish crowd. The fact that it's both a cheaper product and a more consistent product is why it dominates the Tannoy line right up until you get to the fetish zone.

    A prospective buyer would be better off paying attention to driver size, cabinet, magnet structure, surround and crossover than he would which waveguide Tannoy shoved into the tweet-hole. Since there's no such thing as a perfect Tannoy, that buyer will have plenty of choices to make.
     
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  25. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    Yes obviously the overall design is what made them famous. I was simply expressing the fact that the Kensingtons are where you get their original waveguide and the one in their famous vintage speakers also the one that is preferred by most of the vintage Tannoy guys I've spoken too. As for the tulip waveguide be better. You are actual the first person I've come across that seems to hold that position. I've heard turnberry and Kensingtons side by side. I found the honk to be worse in the Turnberry. Too each their own but the fact is the models below the Kensingtons other then being a DC design have very little in common with the desirable vintage Tannoy speakers.
     
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