Harshness in Fagen, Krall, Famous Blue: the recording or my system?

Hi, Folks,
I have made some changes to my system that I am overall very happy with, but I'm noticing some "sibilance" or harshness to certain voices and I'm wondering if I'm simply hearing some things I hadn't heard before because my system's more resolving, or if there's a synergy problem that has given me a tipped up "presence region." So I want to know if you hear these things too:

1) Jennifer Warnes on Famous Blue Raincoat, first track, "First We Take Manhattan:" I'm hearing an edge to her vocals... sounds like some sort of processing.

2) Morph The Cat: Title track; Donald's massed voices on the verses. How do those (highly processed) vocals sound to you? Breathy? Harsh?

3) Diana Krall, "Let's Face The Music and Dance" from "When I Look In Your Eyes." Very closely miked, but do you hear harshness in some sibilant consonants?

Trying to figure out if this is the recording or my system! Thanks in advance!

 

I guess it is more revealing, I notice a harshness in all digital replaying, the DCC CDs are the exception, some of the few that nearly eliminate this.

Maybe your new system might make you listen to music other than Audiophile classic Dem discs, all of which are over rated.
I think Famous Blue Raincoat always sound thin, brittle and quite horrible.

Play some of Steve's Masterings, and maybe Buena Vista Social Club and report back.

 

You know, the funny thing is that I don't like Diana Krall or Famous Blue Raincoat all that much, either! I was just hearing that brittle, sibilant quality that I'd never heard before, and on albums that, because they're "audiophile favorites," I'd assume were well recorded. I do love Donald Fagen, but I don't think much of the sonics on Morph The Cat.
Buena Vista Social Club sounds amazing, so maybe this is a matter of "more revealing."
Thanks for the response!

 

The question is what changes have you made to the system that makes you think this?

- Buck

 

Hi, Buck,
Biggest change is new speakers: Omega Super Alnico monitors, with the hemp cone driver. Very resolving and revealing (and still breaking in), and I'm only hearing this "edge" on certain selections, so I'm wondering if I'm just hearing an "edge" to the actual mix that was smoothed over by my previous speakers, which were Reference 3A De Capo's.

 

You don't list the rest of your system so it's difficult to comment meaningfully. Also: I assume it's all CD?

John K.

 

If the speakers are still breaking in, that could very well be the problem. I've heard lots of strange frequency spikes and other various sonic anomalies when a speaker is first breaking in.

So it might mellow out with some more time. I don't know those recordings though. Pretty drab stuff except for Fagen.

And I don't really listen to anything post-Gaucho and The Nightfly there.

 

John K., happy to provide info:

• Audio Note Kits Kit 1 integrated 300 B SET amp
• SOTA Sapphire TT with Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge and Linn Basik arm
• Supra Classic 6.0 speaker cable
• Music Hall CD 25.2 CD player, used as transport only into Musical Fidelity M1 DAC
• Hi Rez files on MacBook Pro into DAC via Musical Fidelity V-Link 192 USB-to-SPDIF converter

I currently have about 80 hours on the speakers, with 80 to 100 hours recommended break in time. I should also mention that I'm currently using some cheap, MDF stands until I ascertain ideal speaker height.

Hope this helps.

 

Could be some break in effects, but it also might be useful if you provided more detail on the recordings you've listed. Specifically, I know of two CD releases of Famous Blue Raincoat. There was the original release on Cypress Records, and there is a "20th Anniversary Edition" on Shout Factory" with a modified track order and four "previously unreleased" selections. The Shout Factory has gone through some "loudness mastering / dynamic compression" not present on the original Cypress Records release.

 

Hi, Darkmass,
This is the Cisco gold CD release of the 20th anniversary edition. It has the "previously unreleased" material. And as I said, Jennifer Warnes' voice has an "edge" to it that sounds like some kind of processing was applied. I've never heard any other version so I have nothing to compare it to.

 

I can comment on the CD / FBR / First We Take Manhattan.

The original CD, at least to me, has a very slight sibilance I would attribute to recording / mastering issues & too much multi track over dubbing ? The 20th anniversary CD, non gold release, just ruined this track & the level of sibilance was increased, although not to the point of sounding terrible, but enough so, that I never listen to track 1, & in my opinion its just bad mastering / DR smashing.

 

I think you've said it well, and I've just given another listen to both masterings of First We Take Manhatten. That particular song has long been a favorite of mine from FBR...for the singing, yes, but perhaps more so for the overall Leonard Cohen imagery and production gestalt of it. A little sibilance is on the original, but for me it's still very listenable.

For me, the entire 20th Anniversary Edition CD borders on the unlistenable, certainly in comparison. Rebbi, my strong suspicion is that the gold CD release you have is no more than the Shout Factory 20th Anniversary Edition that just happens to have been issued on gold. It is the gilded ghost of something once regarded (correctly or not) as an "audiophile standard". The newer release does have an edginess to it. Processing was definitely applied. Your modified system may be making that edginess more apparent, but if so, it just might be a more truth-telling system.

Give your system a few more hours and see what you think.

 

Maybe this is just my bias against full-range drivers, but you're listening to a speaker with one full-range driver and a whizzer cone. I'm kind of not exactly surprised that there's some harshness there. Highs are not really the strong point with those (nor bass), but sweet mids. It's kind of the price to pay for avoiding crossovers and driver interaction complexity entirely. There's no free lunch.

 

Glad I'm not the only one who hears this in these types of speakers. Same with many two-way systems with woofers 8" or larger in diameter- e.g. Tannoy.

 

Are you talking about vinyl or digital?

 

Ok .... I have a system about one tenth the quality that you're running but rule number one as far as I'm concerned is listen to music that you actually like.
You will enjoy your system more.
Life's to short to waste it on tunes you don't dig !

 

Digital: the Cisco gold 20th Anniversary CD.

 

I have two early copies of FBR. Cypress and I think RCA Ariola? I'll need to check but both sound good. Not harsh at all. And of course, digital per se isn't harsh. The production or mastering maybe, but not the medium. I've got to many good sounding discs to know that's true.

 

There's definitely sibilance on Krall's Face The Music and Dance. Lots of it.

 

IMO, it is not unusual for audiophiles to tip up their systems around 10k and up. This gives more "air," which we like, and also accentuates any harshness already on the recording, which we don't. Another reason we need a good -- no, great -- audiophile digital equalizer developed that can go between source and DAC.

 

As opposed to any normal digital equalizer...!

 

So, maybe it's not just me.

I'm not talking about the fact that it's like her mouth's a millimeter from the microphone and you can here every breath. I'm talking about edge or harshness. Hmmm...

 

Definitely not you, it's hugely there. "SSSSoon we'll be without the moon..."

 

The MF M1 DAC has had a few mediocre reviews, especially for its sharp top end. I know for my own system digital never really did it for me until I bought my current DAC ( Lampizator ). In fact I now listen through it far more than vinyl, despite having an excellent turntable. I am not saying it will turn a poor recording into a good one, although it has surprised me on previously unlistenable CD's.

 

I never listen closely when things are settling in, total waist of time.
Jennifer Warnes Famous Blue Raincoat is one disc that many set-up guys use to tweak equipment so if that doesn't sound right when your done you may have to look at your equipment, cables, cords and such.
But, I wouldn't worry yet as your ears may also have to adjust.