Is a "phono" cable necessary instead of an interconnect?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Joe Spivey, Sep 23, 2015.

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  1. George Blair

    George Blair Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Is this a DIY upgrade? What's involved with replacing a stock phono cable exactly, as I would consider doing this with my MMF-5 ?
     
  2. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

    The interconnects on the MMF-7 as sold by Music Hall are standard RCA plug-ins, so swapping them out isn't an issue. Are the interconnects on the MMF-5 hard wired?

    This upgrade was what started me out on changing all my other cables as well, some purchased from Signal Cable, others bought used here on the Forum. In my case I found the best sound from the turntable came about via Silver or a Silver & Copper combo. I quickly learned that quality cables certainly do change the sound, but I have my limits on what I'm willing to spend. Thankfully there are other audiophiles with greater means and pronounced cases of upgraditis I can benefit from!
     
  3. riddlemay

    riddlemay Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Re shielding: My understanding is that some cables (e.g. Kimber) are unshielded. They must have some reason for doing that. I.e., it can't be the case that they went, "Oops, forgot to include shielding!," or "Should we have shielding? Nah, too expensive," or "Hum schmum, no one cares about shielding." It's obviously a deliberate choice. So my question is, what is the rationale for non-shielding? What sonic attributes can be expected from it?
     
  4. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Shielding adds capacitance. Not necessarily enough to be a problem. From what I have seen of Kimber, they tend to use a lot of braided config said which created twisted pairs which can have noise cancelling affect. Which is better? Of course the right answer is "depends".
     
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  5. George Blair

    George Blair Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Yes, hard wired. Not an easy upgrade then.
     
  6. riddlemay

    riddlemay Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Thanks, BayouTiger. So what I'm trying to get at is: If Kimber thinks adding capacitance is a bad thing (and they must, or else why would they opt for non-shielded), why do they think it's a bad thing? I realize different people will differ or whether added capacitance is good or bad. That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking, for those who are in the anti-adding-capacitance camp like Kimber, why are they? What do they hear that tells them added capacitance is bad?
     
  7. RonW

    RonW Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    I always use video cables. They offer the least capacitive load on the cartridge.
     
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  8. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Well, generally less capacitance equals flatter frequency response. But we are talking about picocarads per foot so it's debatable how much effect a short interconnect will have. For me, I look at he quality of construction, connectors, etc on interconnects, but then mine are all either BJC or the lower end Audioquest stuff. Where possible I use Mogami balanced cables.
     
  9. Captain Wiggette

    Captain Wiggette Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle
    This is not necessarily true. A video cable (any 75ohm cable) will by necessity have relatively low capacitance (that is there are many non-75 ohm cables which will have much much higher capacitance) inherent to the physical conductor geometry necessary to achieve a 75 ohm impedance. However, you can achieve even lower capacitance if you don't require the limitations of a 75 ohm geometry. For example, the Blue Jeans LC-1 deviates from a 75ohm geometry (and it is not a 75ohm cable, not appropriate for digital audio or video), but as a result can achieve even lower capacitance. This all being said, a high quality video coax not from a boutique manufacturer is usually an excellent choice regardless.
     
  10. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    As I look at the specs for many very good interconnects, I sure start to think that Cat5e or Cat6 would make a very good interconnect. Sure the impedance is off, but for audio and high impedance I/O I don't see where that would matter.
     
    Rolltide likes this.
  11. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

    Before using the Signal Cable Silver Resolution phono interconnects I used component video cable. It was a big improvement over the stock cable, but the Silver Resolution was even better.
     
  12. RonW

    RonW Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    That's what I used for a 3ft run. Video component cable. Worked really well for me on a Thorens with an AT-440 mla. Direct wired and very low capacitance.
     
  13. Captain Wiggette

    Captain Wiggette Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle
    Awful idea. Standard category cables have no shielding. Ethernet is a balanced interface, analog interconnects are not. Analog interconnects require shielding. Category cable is also not appropriate for digital or video signals as they use different impedance. There are, however, numerous BALUN products that allow you to transmit video or audio signals over long distances using category cables. They are generally in the $75-150 range, depending on features and quality (active or simpler passive transformers).
     
  14. krisjay

    krisjay Psychedelic Wave Rider

    Location:
    Maine
    I have the Orbit Plus with the acrylic platter. The specs may only indicate a small bump in certain areas, but I find it is a solid upgrade. Speaking from an overall perspective, it just sounds better. As far as cables, I always go with the best cables I can afford, I usually make them myself, great results can be had going DIY with cables.
     
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  15. Joe Spivey

    Joe Spivey Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Cool, thanks for the insight Krisjay! Nice hearing from an actual Orbit owner.

    Off topic from original post, but are you using a mat with the acrylic platter? And if so, is it the felt or cork mat from Uturn or something else?
     
  16. krisjay

    krisjay Psychedelic Wave Rider

    Location:
    Maine
    No mat. I have never cared for a mat with acrylic platters, the Orbit Plus proved no different. The difference is not subtle.
     
  17. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    All definitely true however looking at some high end interconnects, several use a twisted pair configuration and some are not shielded. Kimber has several in this configuration. The impedance rating is usually based on 100Mhz transmission and may or may not have any significant influence on audio which is actually not terribly demanding as to transmission.
    I haven't tried such a cable, just curious how it would do, but I do work with several types of control systems that move data using a variety of protocols using Cat5e cable since it's cheap and easy. Frankly my biggest gripe with it would be that it's 24ga solid (usually though I do work with some stranded) and very brittle to work with.

    I may make a set just as an experiment out of curiosity.
     
  18. Doug G.

    Doug G. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, MN USA
    Directional AC cable is absolute nonsense.

    Doug
     
  19. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    This is an audio forum sir! No room for such blasphemous speech!
     
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  20. BKphoto

    BKphoto JazzAllDay

    i use Blue Jeans RCA's and 16 gauge speaker wire for the ground...
     
  21. Doug G.

    Doug G. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, MN USA

    Oops, I lost my head and forgot where I was for whatever time it took to write that sentence.

    :D

    Doug
     
  22. Captain Wiggette

    Captain Wiggette Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle
    May I suggest a correction: "high price interconnects." The idea (if you can call it that) of using an unshielded twisted pair for an unbalanced interconnect, as Kimber and some other folks do, is hysteria. But folks do as they please, and what they do with surplus finances is certainly not my business.

    [/quote]The impedance rating is usually based on 100Mhz transmission and may or may not have any significant influence on audio which is actually not terribly demanding as to transmission.[/quote]

    The impedance won't matter for analog, that's for sure.


    It would work fine if you lived inside a Faraday cage. The problem, obviously, is that an unbalanced signal requires shielding of some kind, otherwise you're just making an antenna and attempting to send a low-level signal down it. Clearly a recipe for noise. But, you know, if you're trying to listen to aliens or something while playing your stereo, I guess that makes sense? :p
     
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  23. Drew769

    Drew769 Buyer of s*** I never knew I lacked

    Location:
    NJ
    I have an Ortofon phono cable, which is RCA to RCA, and has a ground wire attached. It's nice, but not cheap. I think I paid $240 direct from Ortofon. Grover Huffman makes a phone-specific RCA to RCA as well. The price leader is probably Blue Jeans Cable. They have a Phono cable that is downright cheap and well shielded. I was using Kimber Timbres but they have very little (no?) shielding. Nice open sound (perhaps a tad light), but with some noise from by LOMC cart. Noise won't be as much of a problem with a MM cart and that onboard Rogue input.
     
    Joe Spivey likes this.
  24. searing75

    searing75 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Western NY
    Belden 9271 and some RCA plugs, and you can make your own interconnects that will blow most anything out of the water!
     
  25. Joe Spivey

    Joe Spivey Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I would like to try the acrylic platter. Question for you about tone arm height - Did you have to adjust this since you're not using a mat? If so, how did you go about adjusting.
     
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