Reel-to-reel tape is the new vinyl

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Brian Gupton, Oct 8, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mike from NYC

    Mike from NYC Senior Member

    Location:
    Surprise, AZ
    I had Meet the Beatles in 7.5"when it was first released and guess what? It died after about 15 years after I tried to replay it - all I got was squeal. I'm still playing the vinyl copy today.
     
  2. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY

    It's funny that you mention all these analog anomalies, considering that a good majority of your collection of PCM/DSD audio is nothing more than a digitized recording of open reel tape playback. Therefore you get to enjoy all the inconsistencies and anomalies of analog audio which you dislike so much, although a bit more indirectly :)
     
    The FRiNgE and showtaper like this.
  3. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    But without the additional layer of analog anomalies added by copying. :D
     
    crispi likes this.
  4. mongo

    mongo Senior Member

    Sal, paisano!
    I have no idea if you are Italian. I'm definitely not but you do get the essence of what I'm saying.
    For me it was my neighbor's GT500 Mustang Cobra convertible. Blue mist paint job with dual racing stripes.
    Short of the Starship Enterprise, that car was IT.
    But the new Corvette would smoke it every way from Sunday, Pal.
     
  5. TommyTunes

    TommyTunes Senior Member

    I can firmly disagree with this statement, I have several high res downloads in either 24/192 or DSD and the same albums on tapes released by the Tape Project and they are not close. Initially I thought that well perhaps the actual masters weren't used to created the download so I recorded the tape to DSD and while closer the tape still had the edge.
    However the real issue is that there is too little available in the R2R format to make it a viable format to invest in plus in all truth it makes listening to music a chore.
     
  6. Sal1950

    Sal1950 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Central FL
    Have you considered the possibility that you have grown to prefer the sound of the less accurate analog playback over the more detailed reproduction capabilities of a digital mastering? That is a very prominent position in High End audio today.
     
    crispi and rhubarb9999 like this.
  7. Sal1950

    Sal1950 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Central FL
    Anomalies of analog divided by 2 since they're not part of the digital playback chain, hence a 50 improvement in the playback quality. But I sure you realized that before you wrote your misleading response.
     
    rhubarb9999 likes this.
  8. chuckieh

    chuckieh Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hillsborough, NC
    I think I'm going to look into that.:laugh:
     
    npc145 likes this.
  9. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    So..
    analog playback is 50 PER CENT worse than digital for the mere fact it goes through a cartridge/tonearm or tape machine head stack?
    Where or where do we find em?
     
  10. Burt

    Burt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kirkwood, MO
    As a way to play back existing prerecorded material legitimately released that you probably have any desire to listen to, R2R tape is a non starter.

    If you want to record acoustic music in the field for fun and can get people worth recording to let you hang mics....and if you have good to excellent electronic and mechanical skills to maintain them and enjoy doing so...you can have a lot of fun and maybe you can record something you can license and distribute that will make for a good hobby business.

    A good friend of mine is working on a deal to record an amateur, but very good amateur, acoustic music group. He has a lot of money and hopes to not lose too much of it on the deal. I'm under unofficial NDA on the specifics but he's got one of my AG440 transports on extended loan. Hopefully it will be our answer to the Nutley Brass.
     
  11. Chooke

    Chooke Forum Resident

    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    Perhaps it was 40 or 50 years ago. I can still remember a time as a kid when dads had a R2R as the showpiece of their audio hi fi. These days, even recording studios no longer use R2R having been surpassed by modern and better fidelity equipment.
     
  12. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    This is totally speculation and wishful thinking. The fact is that, definitely, technology has gone forward in the production of products for the consumer. But ONLY in the parameters set by manufacturers to increase their sales and profit as set forth by their marketing departments. Why do I say it this way? Because I am a design engineer who's been commanded by companies to reduce cost and increase cosmetic quality but SAVE MONEY and AVOID THE EXPENSE of technical improvements in actual functional performance. So if you want to believe the hype that everything gets better in every way, then you are stuck in the ancient thinking of my father's craftsmanship, and of advancing art rather than mass-marketing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2015
  13. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Not in the rock studio wheel house my friend. Plenty of tape still in use there.
     
    Daily Nightly likes this.
  14. Chooke

    Chooke Forum Resident

    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    Great to hear that. Some types of music do sound better on tape.
     
  15. alexpop

    alexpop Power pop + other bad habits....

    eBay = $$$ pre recorded.
    Blank tape ..make your own mix RTR tapes .
     
  16. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Let me mention a simple example of hype claiming improved performance and quality, but actually an improvement ONLY in profit margain and ease of manufacture.

    Many years ago my father (a physicist and engineer) showed me a shelf of Log Cabin Maple Syrup, in the market. Some had a big red star, saying NEW AND IMPROVED TASTE. Then Dad turned to the back of each bottle to compare the ingredients. The old "inferior" one had 7% maple, whereas the new "improved" one had 3% maple. So, I learned that advancement is not always in the best interest of the consumer. Audio is no different.
     
  17. Chooke

    Chooke Forum Resident

    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    You're not comparing apples with apples so to speak. Sure, some audio gear and consumer items more generally are built more cheaply, the human side of workmanship is not the art it once was, but technology progresses. Electronics get better - even basic things like capacitors and resistors, our understanding of what componentry can be improved is refined over time and so on. Even the cheapness part is not altogether a bad thing, it brings things that were once unaffordable to the masses. A $1k stereo today sounds way better than a dollar equivalent (in real terms) of 20 or 30 years ago. It would be the same at any price point you can nominate. A car today is far more refined and reliable than one of 30 years ago. It may have less character, and a lot of the fun from tinkering with it has gone, but it is still better in almost every way. A TV has a much better picture, more reliable than the old valve sets. The quid pro quo is that most stuff is disposable whereas in the past you would keep it sometimes for generations.
     
    TimL and timztunz like this.
  18. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    The point is that in the audio and music recording industry, we cannot be sure that "better sound" has been one of their top priorities. You are assuming it is, which is wishful thinking. I am assuming at Audio Note it is, but not at Sony.

    Cars are definitely always getting better because the consumer and government agencies demand it. TVs too because we all go down to Best Buy and compare picture quality.

    This is all apples and apples because it all depends on what the company is really trying to accomplish, despite their advertising.

    If you want to blindly believe that your CD and transistor system "sounds better" than mine BECAUSE mine is tape, LP and tubes, fine enjoy. I use my ears instead of faith.

    You are in the wrong thread. Please write your opinion in the "isn't Hi-Rez digital great?" thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2015
    FashionBoy likes this.
  19. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    Agreed!!!
     
    FashionBoy and Warren Jarrett like this.
  20. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I think you're both right and it depends on what the item actually is. It is far cheaper to manufacture an LCD or LED TV than it is to make a tube television AND it is hard to argue that LCD/LED is not both cheaper AND better (mostly).

    But what is also true is that Tube amplifiers and Turntables have benefited from improved parts quality over the years.

    Take the longest selling integrated amplifier in the world - the Sugden A21a. Began selling in 1967 and still sells today. As the years passed Sugden began using better parts quality that were not available in 1967 but were available in the late 70s and then 90s so you saw changes to the amplifier - it could now handle more heat and offer 20 watts instead of 10.

    The amplifier has also been subjected to blind level matched listening sessions against current modern SS amplifiers and beat them!! It is one of if not the closest thing to a Solid State SET amplifier. It runs single ended and pure class A and hot. And it doesn't have a bucket of features compared to modern amps - and unlike most SS amps - in blind level matched sessions not only do people tell it apart - they choose it as the best sounding as is often the case with Tube vs SS comparisons over the years.

    When people start using analogies comparing stuff new to what was made 30-50 years ago I get it. But the best tube amps today will destroy the best tube amps from 30 years ago.

    This is where I fond a lot of arguments fall down - tube amps don't remotely sound the same even with the same tube output of similar design. Some guy hears a SS amp beat up an ST70 in 1970 and declared tube amps to suck. Well yeah but the ST70 is a total pile of caca (in stock form anyway) compared to any halfway modern $500 tube amp out of China (notably from the likes of Spark/Cayin. Tube amps didn't just stop progressing.

    But my advice is if you really think you're being tricked into having to like Tube amps to be in the in audiophile crowd (a legit concern) then do what I do and listen blind and level matched to within 0.1dB (you're going to need an SPL meter) and audition in this manner so you can be sure your preference is based on what you hear and not what you see or "believe in." Expensive SS makers may fear such tests but the good tube/SET amp makers have zilch to worry about.
     
    Kkfan likes this.
  21. Joni H

    Joni H Member

    Location:
    Finland
    Great to see this discussion, even though some harsh words have been said.

    Anyway, I have a liking for some Frank Sinatra tapes. Of course I've come across some bad ones, but that doesn't take anything away from enjoying the better tapes. I also find it just plain interesting to hear, see and feel what was a highly regarded format back in the day.
     
  22. Chooke

    Chooke Forum Resident

    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    Amongst all the snark, I think you missed the points. It is absurd comparing maple syrup, largely a natural product, with consumer durables. Tecnological progress isn't just about better formats, whether we are discussing digital video, audio or photography, but brings improvements more generally. Your tape, LP and valve equipment also improves with technology - perhaps not so much valves as there isn't much of a market for them anymore. My brother's hobby is restoring old radios, amps, TVs etc. On of the first things he does is replace the old resistors and capacitors with new ones made of modern materials, same sometimes with wiring and other circuit componentry.

    I did not mention once CD/transistors vs LP/tapes/valves and I really could not care if you prefer or believe the former is better, but generally they have benefited from improved materials and manufacturing processes. What I can say about modern technology and transistorisation is that it has improved the sound quality more generally and certainly for mass market products. My daughter's Ipod playing Itune tracks sounds way better than the Sony Walkman cassette I had at her age, and is much cheaper too.
     
    TimL likes this.
  23. Defdum&blind

    Defdum&blind Forum Resident

    There are about 15 sources world wide of new pre-recorded tapes now, Revox just starting distributing tapes in Europe, with most new releases being pre-recorded in real time at 15 IPS on 2 track 1/4" tape with the secondary market consisting mostly of 7.5 IPS and 3.75 IPS 4 track tapes. The best known of current tape releases are The Tape Project 2 track tapes (the open reel tape revival started after TTP started issuing in 2009 not after the 2013 The Absolute Sound review as stated in the linked article). The majority of new releases are classical or jazz and the prices vary. An internet search will give you links to current tape companies and with eBay being the best source to buy tapes on the used market because of the quantity and availability.

    If I were to start investing in reel tapes I would create a "wish list" of currently available new 2 track tapes and a second list of used 4 track tapes with approximated costs factored in. Tapes on the Revox site can be ordered on 10.5" 15 IPS 2 track or 7.5 IPS 4 track reels but you don't save enough (1 reel instead of 2) to justify the loss in audio quality. Add up the total and understand this may be a starting point if you remain committed.

    Your taste in music and what you are able to find will determine cost as well. The 2 track classical, rock and jazz titles on the used market usually cost the most with easy listening being the cheapest. A lot of the music from the end of the '50s and '60s was very well recorded (in analogue) and will trounce CD or hi-resolution releases of that same music today. One factor that may help justify your purchase is the option to record your favourite vinyl to tape. Selective needle dropping will extend the life of your most expensive or rarest disc. A couple hundred $$ on quality blank tape could save you great expense down the road. The tapes I have from the fifties Tapes don't wear as quickly with the same amount of play as vinyl discs on properly maintained decks. There is no magic number or golden ratio when it comes to the dollars in regards to the outlay in software to hardware. Do your usual homework (from what I gather from your posts), get the tape deck (with modifications / external repro amp) that meets your needs after you decide on the direction you take with pre-recorded and blank tapes.

    However, what will truly justify your expense will be the superior audio quality. Time and time again.
     
    Daily Nightly and Brian Gupton like this.
  24. Jerry

    Jerry Grateful Gort Staff

    Location:
    New England
    Please stop the bickering and get back on topic. We're getting complaints again. Don't be a reel pain.

    Thanks.
     
    FashionBoy and Warren Jarrett like this.
  25. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Ok, I apologize. I'll stop.

    That's cute about "reel pain", though. Quite on-topic double meaning.
     
    Brian Gupton likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine