John Fogerty sues former Creedence bandmates (again)

Arnoff needs to fall off more stumps then

 

Who said anything about replacing anyone?

All he has to do is listen to CCR records and then Mowtown records and think "Doug and Stu would have been great on Motown records" .... There's no right or wrong view here

 

Actually our friend Rockledge said that Stu and Doug was just as good as the Motowns rhytm-section. Good as they were ib a very different style of music they are nowhere close to the Motown Rhytm-section

 

FACT: Seldom do bar bands ever play the drums and bass lines to Suzy Q like the CCR studio version. Because most cannot.
Even drummers who can do that beat properly have a hard time keeping it up for 6 minutes.
Again, when you can figure out both and play them, get back with me.
I can play both, and I can tell you the drums is one of the most creative drum beats ever beat out by a drummer. The bass lines are pure genius.
Neither is for beginners.
Until you can, then honestly, you really haven't a reference point.

I suppose to anyone who is giddy, I have a funny way of "arguing". Particularly when I debate, I do not argue.

 

I did not say they were as good as anybody. I said they would have been a fit rhythm section for Motown. Who is better than who hasn't a goddamned thing to do with that.

 

I'll admit (from what I've heard) Stu might not be up to James Jamerson's level, but Doug could certainly lay down a groove along with the best of the Motown guys

 

I don t agree they would have been a fit rhytm-section for Motown. Namely because it s a different kind of musical that takes other-more syncopated skills than Doug and Stu posess . With that said Doug is a good rockn roll drummer.
For those looking for proof I recomend listening to Marvin Gayes version of Grapewine with CCR. Without judging which version is the best it s obvious for anyone with a pair of ears that the way the rhytm-section work are two totally different ballgames.

 

But we don't really know what Doug's capable of drumming-wise. All we know is what he's done on the records we all love ... But I'd gather that based upon this evidence, if asked to stretch out a bit (with Motown it would have been a few different kinds of pick-ups etc: nothing earth shattering) I have no trouble seeing him doing it .... Just listen to his playing in particular on the first CCR album and then Pendulum ... Hardly a drummer so hampered by a lack of ability that he can't do anything but a straight beat.

 

The Motown rhytm section are reguraly voted as some of the best players ever. They were rooted in jazz, gospel and RnB which means they played in a very different ways than the rockn roll that forms the roots of CCR
Great and sought after rhytm-sections at the time were the likes of the Meters not-with all respect-Stu and Doug-two imo-slightly above average musicians with an incredible luck . Or bad luck considering the sour aftermath of CCR
But I only express my opinions -unlike some others I don t pretend to have proof or that my opinions are of more value than others. But no less either.

 

Yes, but no ..... Just because they were capable of playing jazz, etc, doesn't mean they did on those Motown records. Those records were largly about feel and simplicity mixed with some skill ..... Am I saying Doug would have been great on Nefertiti? Absolutely not..... Could Doug have been perfeclty right on something like "Let's Stay Together" or "Tears Of A Clown?" yes: absolutely. I don't care what damage John's remarks have done to his reputation as a player with some fans.

 

No doubt, either way, that the results would've been pretty spwxial.

 

Did not know Doug and Stu had so many business partners/relatives.

 

You mean fans of CCR?

Yeah, there are lots of those.

 

I'm over half way through the book and although John is at times critical of his bandmates' musical abilities he does give credit where it is due. I am loving the book - he is brutally honest about his own failings. There is so much in there for those of us who are reading for musical insights.

 

Lets stay together is released on Hi records with Al Green and another great rhytm-section, Not Motown.
Personally I don t think Doug would have done the Motown stuff much good .As I said-if you listen carefully to Motown-records you will find a much more flexible and syncpated rhytm than the more muscular rockn roll grove on CCR records. Personally-depending on mood-I like both kind of Rhytms.
When it comes to the bass-playing I feel even more hesistant concerning Stus abilities to funkify a grove. Willie and the poor-boys has a wonderful Stax/Booker t and the MG-s bass-line. Acording to John(that might not tell the truth ) Stu had great difficukties in picking up that gorgeous bass-line. True or not-I don t find evidence on any CCR record that Stu was a natural when it comes to that kind of grove. I don t mean to dismiss his skills as a bass-player -for me he just seems to play in a different style

 

I meant it to be absurd and exaggerated, and yet another Forum member feels that Miles Davis might have been happy with Doug and Stu on Bitches Brew! Oh well. I certainly don't have the energy to argue with that!

 

Very well said...

 

I know those songs aren't Motown. I just used them as similar enough examples of songs I can see Doug doing a good job on.

Everyone is an expert on their own opinion though, so it's no use even wondering things.

 

True

 

Regarding the Mardi Gras debacle we have two versions
1. Johns that claims Stu and Doug were anxious to prove their abilities as Singer- songwriters. John gave in-found like most everyone else the result horrible. According to John Stu and Doug found the result pretty cool
2. Stu and Diugs version that John more or less forced them into doin that thing just to humliate them and maybe get free of the contract

Unlike other here I find it impossible to know who is telling the truth. If anything I believe the truth might lie somewhere between the two stories. Perhaps Stu and Doug as the young men they were felt frustrated of Johns doninating aproach and sort of over-estimated their abilities in the singer-songwriter department. Perhaps John did not exactley put his heart into the thing to sort of teach the boys a lesson. Perhaps his own creativity was running dry and were bound by a contract
We will never know the truth here but to put the entire blame on John seems a bit weird. At least Stu and Doug must be responsible for the-imo-at best-pedestrian songs they wrote and sang-perhaps out of hybris and the feeling nothing could go wrong with a band that was on top of the world.
I am aware of some people enjoying Mardi Gras-for me-with the exeption of 2 great Fogery originals - it might be the worst thing ever put out by a major band
The blame-game played by John and his former colleagues seems a bit pathetic to me. But since they have not calmed down in their seventies we shall not have any hope for a happy ending here
But did they make some great recordings back in the days.

 

What I've found with Mardi Gras is: when it comes to people who consider it one of "the worst things ever put out by a major band" there's no point in even discussing it because the conversation will only go in one direction: trashing the album (excepting John's songs, "yawn") ..... Only when it's someone who at least thinks the album is merely "not as bad as its reputation" can an actual discussion take place.

 

Well I sort of hated the album when it first arrived-through the years Iv gione back to it hoping to find some gold. But unfirtunately for me-I still find it to be a very poor record. Stu and Doug might be a good rhytm-section but singer-songwriters they are not. Something they freely admit putting the blame on John-as if he put a gun to their faces forcing them to write and sing the songs.
But all the luck goes to those who find enjoyment in Mardi Gras. Nothing wrong with that

 

Does he have much to say about the period between Tom Fogerty quitting and the Blue Ridge Rangers?

 

This one defies logic. Studio drummer is s special skill set. Lots of great drummers can't really make it as studio drummers. I have friend who is a world class Jazz drummer and he has never been able to secure session work unless it was with his touring band.

Doug has not been hiding, he's always been around and if anybody wanted they could have called him up for session work. They played on Doug Sahm's Groover's Paradise and it was OK but not mind-boggling. To hear truly astounding in the pocket drumming listen to Grady Tate's performance on Papa Ain't Salty off the album Doug Sahm and band.

 

I wish John Hammond discovered Fogerty, had him ditch the notion of a band of brothers and cultivated him into a Dylanesque solo star.
He would probably be on his 25th lp of new material.