Reel-to-reel tape is the new vinyl

rhubarb999 wrote the following in response to my post:

When I posted, I thought that 48bit/1,024khz would be needed to capture absolutely everything that is the original analog source (since, based on what I've read on-line, 24bit/192khz is said to not be quite enough to be indistinguishable from analog). Another poster pointed out that 24bit/192khz is all that is needed to capture every nuance of the analog original (and 48bit doesn't exist, although I've since found out that 32bit float is in use). My thought was to make a high-resolution digital copy of the original and then use that to make the digital master for the RTR tape.

 

It may take something like 32-bit/384kHz to accomplish that goal ...

 

I have never seen any 10 1/2" reels that are not metal. Presumably, a metal reel is needed to provide better stability when the tape is 10 1/2" instead of 7 1/2" ...

 

I have a few plastic 10-1/2" reels. They came with some generic tape I was trying. I think I bought it back in the late '80s or so. But, yeah - highly unusual.

Funny thing is, one of the advantages of metal reels is the absence of static buildup when fast winding tape - at least that's been my experience.

 

I looked long and hard at the portable recorders. I didn't like the input connector options on most portables, and some seem to have trouble handling line level inputs. I like the RCA inputs on the DA-3000 and setting the input levels is as easy as it can be. I record to a USB thumb drive and move it to my PC for editing the files. Easier than moving a portable recorder. And the kicker is the AD/DA direct mode that lets me use the DAC in the DA-3000 while playing the needle drops on my squeezebox streamer. The DAC is very highly rated. Pretty much the perfect solution (for me anyway).

Terry

 

Got the DR-40 after dealing with the issues cited in my Tascam DR-05. The DR-40 has a much wider range of input adjustment, better connectors—an pair of XLR/1/4" combo input connectors with switchable phantom power:

 

Sorry. I didn't mean to rumple your feathers. Believe it or not, I actually still own two Teac X-10R decks, which certainly aren't any better than the Tascam 32. (Heck, I think I still have a Magnecord out in the garage!) I kinda like them for what they are; but, they're just not great. I guess I have heard better machines that were mechanically and sonically very much better, in a whole other class entirely. Thus, my absent minded scoff at the Tascam 32. Nothing personal, I assure you. The DR-40 is what it is and does what it does. Not scoffing at that. Reel to reel is a dead end for most; because, for various reasons, it's just not something they want to pursue. I'm okay with that. For the person who does want to experience all that the format has to offer and has counted the cost of doing so, maybe not so much a dead end. I had a friend who sank a boatload of money into restoring a 70s Porsche 928! He knew he'd never get his money out of it. But, in the end, it made him happy to drive it; so, whom am I to say, "boo".

 

I have a problem with so many plastic reels being warped that I always have used metal take up reels.

 

Does anyone have any take-up tape they'd like to sell? Playing The Moody Blues In Search of the Lost Chord and realized it had broke basically right before the music starts, to where you can't even feed it into the reel without getting to "Tarmac". If not, I'll just canibalize a non commercial reel.

 

I've got a box of tape on metal reels I'd love to get rid of.

 

Yep, and I have 7 inch metal take up reels too. I have heard static on FF/REW as automated electronics commented in this discussion. This occurred only in low humidity conditions outside, and in winter. I have not encountered any audible problem from it though. After having this happen a few times, I was concerned, so I slow wind the tape by toggling the FF REW buttons. This is good practice anyway as the tape packs better, and it's easier on the tape. Actually I hate high speed FF/ REW... too hard on the tape on 10 inch reels. A better pack before play just reduces the chances of any azimuth drift.

 

Okay, so a quick visit to the tapeheads forum revealed that ATR Magnetics should be releasing a 1 mil. 1/4" recording tape very soon (to compete with RMGI LPR35. Wow! Cool!

Also, I checked out their links page. Wow! Again. There are more folks jumping on the band wagon. Cool! Again. Of particular interest (to me) are the George Duke releases from analogarts.net

I popped on over to JRF Magnetics and if I'm not mistaken they seem to have expanded their replacement head offerings.

For those who are into it, "Hell yeah!"

PS. I also didn't know (until I read it here) that Otari will still build a custom order machine??? Cool! For the third time.

 

Hi Brian, thanks for posting this. I am new to the hoffman forums but an avid reel to reel fan in addition to vinyl and hires. There is good sound and there is great sound, and there is nothing sounds like this kind of sound. Tape fits in the last category. To get this kind of sound you will need a 2-Track machine capable of running at 7.5 and/or 15ips. I recommend the Otari MX-5050 BII 2 for a number of reasons I won't go into here.

The largest secondary market for used pre-record tapes is eBay. It is hit and miss but that's where you'll find them in addition to CL, Goodwill, used Record stores, etc.

There are actually quite a few new pre-records being offered at this time. I have a comprehensive list if anyone would like to see it. As mentioned, they are not cheap. Does the sonic superiority justify the cost? Only your own ears can decide that. I have several early 2-Track 7.5ips (1950s/60s) stereophonic recordings (some of the earliest stereo recordings) and they will blow your socks off. Also have a few Tape Project tapes including the Hooker ‘N’ Heat tape which I acquired before the big price jump. I have compared it against the CD and LP and there is no comparison. In addition to the vocals and instruments, you can hear every tap of Hooker's foot (soul) keeping beat with the session. In addition I have a number of 10.5" 2-Track 7.5ips, professionally recorded, Radio Station Music Programming tapes. These are some of the best deals and best sounding pre-records out there if you can find them.

Another side benefit to having a reel to reel is how the medium imparts a warmth and presence to digital whether CD or HiRes. I have found that recording HiRes onto 2-Track @ 7.5ips warms it up, makes it alive, and adds fire to the sound. I can't really explain it (completely) but others have also reported about discovering this. One of my favorite listening modes is to pump HiRes 24/192 FLAC onto my recorder and monitor the recording off the tape, thus reusing the tape over and over, or taking some time and creating permanent (HiRes) mix tapes.

So will Reel To Reels make a comeback? I don't know. It was always a niche market due to high cost. I hope it does and wonder what would have happened if the technology had not halted in the 80s. Where would heads and tape formulas be today?

In conclusion, I'm pretty sure there will not be a widespread comeback without some new recordings being released. They would need to be copied from the analog session masters and released on 2-Track @ 7.5ips for around $40/reel. I'm pretty sure that would do it if it could be done. However, being that new tape sells for around $25 for a 45 minute 7" reel @ 7.5ips, I doubt they would sell for less than $50-100. That alone might keep a widespread revival from happening considering there is Audiophile Vinyl and SACD for $30-35 and HiRes FLAC for $18-20, sometimes cheaper.

 

Bette Spitz of ATR was present at AES weekend and keeping the spirit of the company alive - which is great! We got to chat a bit and yes she confirmed the news that a new 1 mil formulation is coming!

I've seen them get a lot of criticism over the past few years that they only cater to professionals and don't care about the home enthusiast/pro-sumer high end market. Well, they have been listening, and they made the investment in the new tooling to start up a separate production line. While I personally have no interest in using a 1 mil tape I hope that this will be well received by those who are concerned that they are feeding their home machine high-grade tape that they can't take full advantage of. ATR is unlike anything else and I'm sure their 1 mil offering will be among the best ever produced, if not THE best.


There are also some other goodies coming from them in the near future that may especially interest the home-hobbyists or anyone who wants to spruce up the look of their deck... Hopefully we'll hear more about these soon

 

Used to really like RtoR. Had a Teak deck back in 1970.

But I sure don't see it coming back.

(& 'too many' moving parts.)

 

Awesome.

 

Reel to reel is a wonderful format, once considered state of the art, and it was! Just being "reel to reel" does not guarantee superior fidelity. In fact it often isn't. I would like to just review stuff that has been previously discusses, and also from my point of view, the pros and cons of reel to reel:

The very first and foremost, if there is to be a reel to reel comeback, the good machines are expensive. Just the typical Revox B77 or PR-99 will set you back at least $1500.00 and their prices keep going up. The sound of a two track reel can rival Hi rez digital or surpasses it according to some. I am well aware the specs of even a Studer A 802 does not match hi res digital on paper, hi rez blows it away.. but you gotta listen to the music these guys can make to appreciate them.

Secondly, reel to reel is a high maintenance format. The user has got to be a gear junkie. I can not see any other way to approach this, seriously, at least, as anyone getting into reel to reel has to educate themselves, and be prepared to perform simple tech stuff on their own gear. You have to know how to line up your machine. If you don't, then it's far better to remain in the digital domain, or stick to your vinyl (this coming from a vinyl junkie) I may sound harsh, but reel to reel is not for a totally unmechanical person, or fumbling hands.

Many newbies become discouraged since most machines do not perform to spec, need servicing, or have been improperly serviced. Just because a deck has been serviced, does not guarantee excellent fidelity, often their performance disappointing. Personally I have never purchased a reel to reel from ebay, or thrift store that worked properly, not even a "professionally serviced" one. So be prepared for less than stellar performance as a general rule. It is not that reel to reel isn't "stellar", I had to make it so, by doing all the service myself, often relapping of the heads to obtain the magnificent performance this format is known for.

Reel to reel format generally demands all of the components in the signal path are performing to spec. There is a LOT that can go wrong.

Here is what has to be right:
1) half track format 1/4 inch at 15 ips (7.5 ips noise floor up by 3-5 dB, 1/4 track noise floor up another 3-5 dB or more)
2) fresh heads, not worn
3) the deck properly lined up in cal
4) cleanliness, no dust or oil on the tape, "do not touch"
5) good tape, Maxell high bias "UD" tapes have a reputation for high MOL and low distortion, and are not subject to sticky shed syndrome
There are other good tapes, such as Scotch 206, 207, Radio Shack "Supertape", and some of the TDK's. For type 1, good tapes that run clean are Audiotape, Maxell, TDK, some of the old Scotch 150 tapes are dried out which sheds oxide on the heads. Other "dirty running" tapes are Irish, Concert tape, Shamrock, most other "budget" brands.

 

Continued.. Reel to reel has already made a comeback. Will it ever be as popular as vinyl? The mass appeal of vinyl includes a bourgeois mix, a more casual approach along with the hard core enthusiasts. Reel to reel once enjoyed a vast popularity at home, however not to the extent of vinyl. So, no, reel to reel will never enjoy the same resurrection that vinyl has.

The problem with reel to reel isn't as much its reputation and quality, it is the shortage of tape. New tape is expensive, and old tape with various longevity issues, such as sticky shed, or drying out of the tape protective layer, or binder and dry shedding of oxide on the heads. Companies such as RGMI are again producing tape
http://www.fullcompass.com/category/Reel-To-Reel-Tape.html
Also new tape can be purchased here: http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend

Reel to reel can be also for listening to pre-recorded tapes. (like the pre-recorded cassettes) This was once a thriving market, which ceded to the humble 8 track, and then cassette tapes. There are very well mastered pre-recorded tapes out there. It's just a matter of finding the diamonds in the sand. Many pre-recorded tapes are not produced to the same quality as vinyl was, plus the fact the production quality decreased sharply into the 70's until its demise. The term "pre-recorded" can apply to any tape recorded previously, such as an old home recording, a radio station 10.5 reel, or commercially produced for retail sale.

Here is a list of pre-recorded tapes, formats, and everything under the sun that can be called "pre-recorded"

1) pre-recorded home tapes: an interesting curiosity factor here, as anything can be on the tape. Sometimes it can be a 1st pressing LP recorded at 7.5 ips, preserving an otherwise hard to find LP in pristine condition. Maybe there's a radio program including commercials, a nice slice of history. If we're lucky, it could be "Uncle Ernie" plucking his Banjo, and Fat Lips Felippe' on the bottle hammering out an original bluegrass number... if only ... more oft it's Dad playing with the deck, who implores his kid to "say hi into the mic" (the result peaks the VU) But of all of the curious home recorded tapes I have purchased, most of them are simply music recorded at 3.75 ips, which most home "record-O-philes" preferred to save tape. At this speed, the quality of the recording isn't usually good sounding at all. Back in the 70's, I allowed my brother use my first deck, a Sony TC-255 to record his favorite music off the radio. He selected the slowest speed, 1.875 ips. I encouraged him to at least record at 3.75 ips, which he replied, "why would I want to waste tape?" I advised the same as he recorded TV shows and movies at EP, which now these VHS tapes no longer play (I told him so) I have found the vast majority of home recorded tapes are at slower speed, and recorded on poorly maintained machines with dirty heads. Also the vast majority are physically damaged in some way, stretched from high speed rewind, or edge damaged, or spliced, or touched somewhere by human hands or a gorilla. There also exists magnetic damage from improper storage, or play on a magnetized tape transport. Magnetic damage often sounds "choppy" or can impart treble shrillness in conjunction to upper frequency distortion and partial erasure. The same holds true for the 8 tracks and cassettes. There also existed tape eating machines with an appetite for iron oxide. But given all the obstacles, there is still a good chance to obtain a nice reel of used recordable tape, but must be played or FF through a spare deck to check for defects... a lengthy check.

2) pre-recorded radio station tapes, are usually great finds, as the radio stations recorded brand new promo vinyl LP's to tape for air play. The turntables and cartridges used during the 70's and 80's were audiophile worthy, not like the early transcription tables with record eating ceramic cartridges. The tapes are always 1/2 track and recorded at 7.5 ips or 15 ips. The radio station decks were usually well maintained and demagged regularly, and professional decks such as the Otari 5050, or Revox B-77 that were easy on the tape.

3) pre-recorded tape 2 track mono, for inline heads, commercially produced, but not a vastly popular format, was offered from the 50's through early 60's. Among the sought after are the Beatles in two track mono.

4) pre-recorded stereo tape for inline heads (1/2 track) commonly offered by RCA and Westminster, and others from the 50's, these are the creme' of commercially produced tapes. The very first commercially available stereo format was the inline tape, considered state of the art. The resale market prices tend to run on the high side, from about $50.00 to $100.00 and up, depending on title, and reliability of the seller. As these are genuine audiophile quality, it is essential to purchase a tested tape, otherwise you may end up with one damaged by a tape eating machine from the 50's. There is always the chance it was recorded over or partially erased with Daddy singing to his little girl on Christmas eve... (as one of mine was) charming, but not worth paying too much for.

5) pre-recorded 4 track stereo tape 7.5 ips, a vastly popular format that really caught on. The advantage was convenience, less tape, shorter rewind time, and you could flip the tape to side B (or auto reverse) eliminating the necessity to rewind. This also spooled the tape uniformly in PLAY mode for proper storage. At 7'5 ips, the sound quality was still full range from 30 to 18,000 cycles (although the decks could record beyond that) The noise floor is higher at 1/4 track vs inline 1/2 track, but still sufficiently low with low noise tape, and well mastered.

6) pre-recorded 4 track stereo tape 3.75 ips, also vastly popular, but an inferior format. The advantage was further convenience as even less tape meant very short rewind times, which the record labels advertised. They also advertised "new" 3 3/4 speed, as "new" was usually perceived at a good thing, smaller, slower, more compact, higher tech to retain the same quality of sound. These claims were unsubstantiated by inferior sound, plainly stated. The actual motivation was reduced material, reduced shipping weight and cost to the manufacturer, keeping pace with inflation or increase of profit margin. The 8x duplication speed translated into high frequency losses and sometimes alignment/azimuth errors/ EQ errors/ channel balance defects in these tapes. Defects were common. There are only a few tapes I have run across at this speed that actually sound crisp and alive, (Best of Cream, Tom Jones, CSNY Deja Vu -- Ampex "Blue Box") but usually these are hissy and shrill.

I would not say to completely avoid the pre-recorded 3.75 ips tapes, but only at a bargain price. The expectation is that many will sound awful, worse than cassettes, but others perhaps an upgrade from vinyl in less than pristine condition. I have been rewarded by a few that actually sound decent, but you must ignore the hiss, more or less very audible during quiet passages.

The proviso with any pre-recorded tape, (the coveted inlines too) is that the deck should be aligned to the tape. Any evaluation otherwise is unfair. My suggestion is a deck assigned especially for playing 4 track pre-recorded tapes, a 4 track deck that can play the slower speeds and with an easily accessible head azimuth screw. It is easy to align your azimuth to the tape. No special equipment is needed, just your ears. Simply switch your preamp to mono, or a special headphone cable that combines the L &R channel to mono. Adjust the azimuth to max hi freq sound, and that's it... it is lined up... very easy! The tapes could be played cold, but even slight azimuth error relative to the tape will cause a phasey sound and sometimes shrill and lacking in upper harmonics. So again, a cold play is not a fair evaluation of any pre-recorded tape. You have to align the azimuth to the tape. Many tapes will require no adjustment, as the slaves they were recorded on were calibrated daily, or supposed to be. There will always be errors. The same holds true in the evaluation of the lowly, lonely pre-recorded cassette tape.
Steve VK

 

I overlooked the pre-recorded 4 track Quadraphonic tapes. Quad tapes are always an adventure, always the chance to discover something different. Old quad mixes still in existence have been reissued on Blu Ray, such as "Dark Side of the Moon" the immersion box set. I wonder how many of the quad mixes on digital discs, (if any) have been sourced from existing pre-recorded 4 track quad tapes? Playback requires a quad deck, the most popular offered by Sony, Teac, and Pioneer.

correction on prev post, two track mono is playable on a two track mono head, which preceded the inline head. But two track mono is also playable on other heads, such as a two track inline deck, the L ch only, and also on 4 track stereo decks, L channel only. However the best quality and lowest noise is by playback on a two track mono head, as intended. There was once in existence full track mono, which went out via the dinosaur when that huge asteroid hit.

 

As a consumer format yes that ended in the mid-50's but the format remained in use up until the 90's, you could still get a full track mono deck, typically intended for radio or television production.

Of course pretty much every mono master tape is a full track mono tape so the format was heavily used throughout the 60's, not completely phased out of existence by then, it just had no purpose in a home setting. There are of course heads still available and many functional ones still in use or we wouldn't get the 547th remaster of Milestones or the Dylan mono box, Beatles monos, etc…

 

I know this is not a R2R discussion but has anybody taped their albums to Hi-Fi VHS? I taped my Beatles "the Collection" set and to my ears sounds real good. I A/B'd the tapes and the vinyl and I must say, to my ears anyway, couldn't discern any obvious differences..and no hiss! I'd like to hear some opinions.

 

Hi-Fi VHS is a forgotten format, since it really never caught on as a serious high fidelity option. I recall it received rave reviews. The funny thing about this, it is a superior format. The tape is 1/2 inch, which is twice the width of the typical reel to reel tape, at 1/4 inch, plus the head is helical scan that covers a much wider swath of tape. So the signal to noise ratio is crazy at about -80 dB, and frequency response is flat from 20 to 20,000 cycles.

The disadvantage is editing flexibility, as are the flimsy tape transports in VHS machines. The VHS recorders just did not feature the same quality electronics that appealed to the audiophile market. (and professionals) I would guess, there may have been a few pro Hi-Fi VHS machines offered, but I think not many, and I think also S-VHS also featured Hi-Fi audio. This may be worth looking into.

Also too, another potential problem is the longevity of the tape. A helical scan head is a bit rough on the tape, as the lubricating top layer erodes away, and the tape begins shedding oxide on the heads. Professional reel to reel, 1/4 inch, half track, at 15 IPS can boast 30- 22,000 cycles flat, and a SN of about -75 dB... but hi-fi VHS just beats it.. crazy stuff! Reel to reel offers far more flexibility, and complete reliability and longevity of the recorded tape.

 

Yes, people taped albums to play, sometimes to save wear on records. You know the type, record album day of purchase and file it away, playing the tape going forward. Or people recorded at slower speeds for party tapes. 3 3/4 speed will get you two albums on each side on average, 1 7/8 even more though speed degrades with each step down from 15 or
7 1/2 ips. A friend of mine has a ten inch reel to reel so at 3 3/4 ips he could use one tape for a party, maybe part of a second one if needed. If one is going to be under the influence, better to load the deck up at the beginning and not have to worry about it other than keeping drunks away from the moving parts.

I had an Akai 7" R2R back in the 70s and 80s and I never bought a commercial tape of an album. As some have said, they weren't very good. You were better off taping the record, especially if you recorded at 7 1/2 ips. The tapes sounded good, real good. I haven't heard my friend's deck at 15 ips but with his system which is very good, sounded good with the the 3 3/4 tapes, much to my surprise.

 

I didn't have reel-to-reel, but I did use cassettes for the same reason: to extend the life of my records and also for convenience. Via the use of good tapes and a good and properly adjusted tape deck I could get fairly good sound quality despite it being on cassette. With a C90 tape I could usually get two albums on one cassette (one album per side).

 

Yes Indeed! Moving parts always attract drunks. They will invariably lean on it, sending your valuable piece straight to the floor. And they will say "Oh I am sorry, I'll fix it!" (uummm yep.... get the h^ll outta here... haha !!) What does a drunk not destroy?