Pink Floyd ´animals´ UK first press LP? (plus short ´DSOTMoon´ vinyl master question)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Tom Infinit, Nov 29, 2015.

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  1. Tom Infinit

    Tom Infinit New Member Thread Starter

    hi!

    after listening to the German pressing of this Floyd classic, I thought something is not perfectly right. the shiny and sparkling Pink Floyd ride cymbal isn´t as shiny and sparkling as usual, and it doesn´t sound as open and crisp as expected, so I am buying an UK first press to see the difference.
    just, discogs lists all these matrix numbers as 1977 UK ones:
    SHVL 815 A-2U GL / SHVL 815 B-2U OR
    SHVL 815 A-2U 2 / SHVL 815 B-3U 2
    SHVL 815 A-2U GM / SHVL 815 B-2U AA
    SHVL 815 A-2U CJ* / SHVL 815 B-3U CJ*
    SHVL 815 A-4U / SHVL + 815 + B4
    SHVL 815 A - 2U GP / SHVL 815 B - 2U OO
    SHVL 815 A-3U 2 285 / SHVL 815 B-4U 6
    SHVL 815 A-5 CJ / SHVL 815 B-6
    SHVL 815 A - 2U OP 3 / SHVL 815 B - 3U GRT 3
    SHVL 815 A-3 U 289. 4 / SHVL 815 B-4 U 330 6

    are these all variants of the same lacquer cut, or do they sound considerably different? which are the ones to maybe avoid?

    and, Dark Side Of The Moon:

    I bought an A3 B3 pressing and found the sound in the very loud full on parts (like the peak chorus of Us And Them, with choir and synths and the whole band in full effect mode) less ´open´ and clean as expected. the drums disappear a bit (esp. cymbals) and opposed to a King Crimson ´islands´ first press, where the clarity is always fully retained from the most quiet to the loudest peak parts, I found it a bit strange - as I assumed, DSOTM is one of the best sounding and greatest produced Rock albums ever.
    is it just natural and fine, things like hard driven tape or hard driven tubes made this like it is with the resulting compression and harmonic distortion, or is there another pressing which is fully open, transparent, crisp and clear in the loudest parts of the album.

    thanks for your time and insight (and yes, I used the ´search´ function but couldn´t find answers).
     
  2. Tom Infinit

    Tom Infinit New Member Thread Starter

  3. john lennonist

    john lennonist There ONCE was a NOTE, PURE and EASY...

    Best way to Pink Floyd date pressings is the following (which was actually created by a member here):

    www.PinkFloydArchives.com


    As far as the UK A3/B3 "Dark Side of the Moon," I was underwhelmed when I had a copy also (I have a few pressings that I think sound better), but many here find it to be the best they've heard. :shrug:

    .
     
  4. Tom Infinit

    Tom Infinit New Member Thread Starter

    thanks a lot. this PF Archive site is providing great information.
    I have just bought a UK first pressing of Animals and look forward to the comparison.

    and John, what´s your fave DSOTM version then?
     
  5. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris.

    Well: this is a topic that has been discussed many and many times on this board; however, it is always a pleasure to try to help a new member.

    As far as the album "Animals", we find that the first set of lacquers that was cut was the A2U/B2U one (I'm not considering test pressing).
    The suffix U stamped in the dead-wax does indicate that the mastering had been done somewhere other than at EMI's own Abbey Road facilities.

    Then: do the subsequent lacquers (A3/B3/A4 and so on) sound exactly like the A2/B2 ones? it's impossible to answer: surely, some A3/B3 copies have a fantastic sound and some others are not so spectacular. The A3/B3 cut is a different cut but we do not know if the mastering engineer used the same settings during the A3/B3 cut and the A2/B2 one.
    Furthermore, many, too many things come into play: the wear of the stampers, the quality of the raw material etc.
    Maybe some A3/B3 copies sound better than some A2/B2 ones.
    Maybe that some A5/B7 copies sound better than the first cut.

    Please, keep in mind that the first cut not always sounds better than the subsequent cuts.

    To answer your question, you should listen to all A2/B2 copies and to all subsequent editions: so, probably you might find that most of the A2/B2 copies sounds better than the subsequent editions; but there is also the possibility that you might find that most of the A5/B7 copies sounds better than most of the A2/B2 copies.

    I hope to be a help..
     
  6. Tom Infinit

    Tom Infinit New Member Thread Starter

    Stefano, when I did a search at least the first page results didn´t offer this info. so, thanks for your informations.
    I thought the different matrix numbers in this case indicate same lacquer but different stamps, but if not - now this gets really impenetrable I guess, unless you dedicate all your time and money to one single album.

    I had hoped that things like stamper wear or vinyl granulate difference within one pressing run doesn´t change the sound as drastically as a complete different mastering (and I mean lacquer cut, not the stereo-processing premastering). but you indicate that everything is possible here, and there can´t be made any statement which press offers the ´most true´ (to the master tape) sound, which I guess is the most transparent, transient-rich and clean one.

    as for DSOTMoon, this great Pink Floyd site suggests:
    "Pressings that use A-2 / B-2 lacquers have minor sound quality issues, particularly during the song, Money. Some copies also have a skip pressed into the grooves during the song Money. Such issues were corrected with the A-3 / B-3 cuttings, with the exception of the peak level distortion during the clocks at the beginning of the song Time (the MFSL UHQR LP is the only vinyl pressing without such distortion)."
     
  7. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris.

    You're welcome!

    Different matrix numbers always indicate different lacquers (the A2 lacquer is different from the A3 one etc) and different stampers (for example: the 10th stamper created by the plating process of the A3 lacquer is different from the 10th stamper created by the plating process of the A2 lacquer).

    Surely, a different mastering is really very important but the wear of the stampers and the quality of the raw material is very very important, too.
    Keep in mind that you can find a difference in sound between two copies pressed starting from the same lacquer and between two copies pressed by the same stamper.

    I can assure you that you can find A2/B2 copies with no flaws at all.

    Bottom line: if you have in your hands a copy that you think has a great sound, keep it tight and do not care if it has A1 or A14 in the trail-off unless you're a fanatic record collector.
     
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  8. Tom Infinit

    Tom Infinit New Member Thread Starter

    "Bottom line: if you have in your hands a copy that you think has a great sound, keep it tight and do not care if it has A1 or A14 in the trail-off unless you're a fanatic record collector."

    fully signed.
    but usually I can´t listen to a hundred different versions but need to find the generally better versions before placing a 30 - 100 Euro order for one LP.
     
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  9. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    The key is to get a clean sounding UK copy - period. I would worry less about 2U or 3U.

    Cuttings are often subject to compromises. DSOTM has enough dynamic range that the signal to noise ratio has to be kept high enough but retain room at the top end. I've had a lot of copies of the album over the years and my favorite is the UK A3/B3. It has the best 'presence' to the human voices and silkiness to the higher frequencies. I suspect because the best generation of tape was being used at that point. Is it perfectly mastered? Dunno - thats a factor of the recording itself and the engineers work when cutting the lacquer. In the wash the A3 balances everything best - for me that is. I've had the MFSL, German copies, US & UK copies, plus one or two others I forgot.
     
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  10. Tom Infinit

    Tom Infinit New Member Thread Starter

    but Raunchroll, my thought was, the peak parts like the full on loud choir & band chorus of Us And Them came a bit unbalanced (like too hard driven tape), esp. when you listen to the drums (esp. ride), and I have A3 B3. my question was if that´s the way it was made or if there are any ´better´ versions out there that keep fully open and transparent in the loudest parts - or if it´s the character on all pressings.
     
  11. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris.

    Well: the generally better version is the 1st cut, mastered from the original tapes: generally, record companies demand the best possible quality from the first edition because it has to break into the market: so very often, not only with regard to the sound quality but also with regard to the quality of the outer cover (lamination, wide spine, inserts and so on), record companies seek the best possible result when we talk about first editions.

    Then: if you're a fan of "loud cuts", I advise you to listen to 45 rpm singles: they were in heavy rotation on the radio stations and they almost always had a different "loud" mastering than the counterparts on 33 rpm format.
     
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  12. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Well if its on the tape then any lacquer cut from that tape source is going to have that issue. The only way to know more is get a few other pressings and compare them on your system with your ears. The likelihood that this particular part that bugs you was assessed by someone else - who compared an A3/B3 pressing against others, and happened to pay attention to THAT particular passage, and remembers which one was better (or not) - is not very high.

    One other thing - maybe it could be a product of your system? If my years tell me anything, its that peculiarities heard on one system may not be present on another.

    In finding favorite pressings I remain aware I am listening to a recording made with mastering choices. I focus on things like the presence of the recording and how 'real' and 'musical' the presentation is, and the overall balance. Fuzzy criteria for sure. If I focus on specific aspects of mastering I get nowhere. One record is bright, another low end heavy, another murky. These usually wind up being aspects of the original recording that are unavoidable.
     
  13. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris.

    This is not necessarily true: most of the flaws could be corrected during the mastering stage, even in a period when sophisticated software was not used.
    Furthermore, when we talk about Pink Floyd I really think that it's hard to believe that a master tape could have coarse flaws.

    Yes, maybe this is the case.
     
  14. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    There are three commonly seen sets of lacquers cut for the initial UK pressings of Animals. They are designated -2U -3U and -4U. They all sound about the same to my ears. The challenge is finding an early copy with minimal surface noise.

    The later UK cuts of Animals without the "U" after the lacquer cutting number sound a little different, perhaps a little less punchy, but still excellent. I managed to find a later press A-5 B-6 copy near mint condition, and I like it a lot.

    After going through a bunch, my top favorite sounding copy of Animals is a UK copy with A-2U B-3U matrices. It has a tiny bit more surface noise than I would wish for, but it's the overall best I've heard.
     
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  15. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Best Animals to me, and I havent heard em all, is believe it or not the Pathe Marconi French Pink Vinyl one. Compared against beater UK and mint Aus pressing.
     
  16. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    EXACTLY RIGHT, i have said many times that UK vinyl after 1973 is a crap shoot, sadly with this 77 album there is no earlier alternative, so you just need to get lucky...
     
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  17. JP Christian

    JP Christian Forum Resident

    My copy is A-5/B7 and sounds very respectable - I've never felt the need to hunt out any additional variations - one of the few Pink Floyd albums where I don't have multiple copies!

    As for DSOM the UK A10/B9 sounds stellar - I also have an earlier A3/B4, and from memory that's also very good.
     
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  18. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    What I mean is that if a tape has, say, saturated peaks on vocals or nothing more above a certain frequency, its impossible to 'undo' these. They can be masked or tweaked to hide the effect, but not undone.

    I do agree what the OP is hearing is probably not on the tape used to cut the A3/B3 pressing of DSOTM. Thats seems like a pretty serious flaw. Whether its on his record I don't know. I don't recall anything like it on mine.
     
  19. bradley a kessler

    bradley a kessler Forum Resident

    Location:
    pa
     
  20. bradley a kessler

    bradley a kessler Forum Resident

    Location:
    pa
    I just bought a Japanese copy of both animals and dsotm and they sound awesome. I also have the msfl Dsotm which does sound good and the 1st uk issue of animals which also sounds excellent
     
  21. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris.

    Well: it seams that you really like animals... :D
     
  22. john lennonist

    john lennonist There ONCE was a NOTE, PURE and EASY...

    As others have posted, it's really difficult to find a copy of the first / early UK "Animals" that doesn't have a lot of surface noise (at least in my experience).

    Combo of less than optimal vinyl plus the very rough inner sleeve (a similar texture inner sleeve did no favors for U.S. copies of Zep's "Houses of the Holy" either).

    .
     
  23. Sparkler

    Sparkler Senior Member

    Location:
    Leesburg, VA
    Maybe various masterings colour it differently to an extent but I have always thought that the peak chorus in Us And Them that the OP is referring to ("Forward he cried...." et al) was rather congested and overloaded regardless of mastering.
     
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