Fair enough, but let me ask you this. If torrents (taping, lending CDs to friends etc) weren't available how many of those 18 Disc downloads would be sales of Big Blue? In this particular case I am guessing the 18 Disc downloads are from people who can't afford the 18 Disc set (what kind of kid or college kid can shell out $600) or people who brought the 6 disc version and are angry with the pricing scheme on the 18 Disc set so downloaded that in addition to their purchase. Both these groups would not be buying the 18 disc set anyway. I guess my question is what percentage of those 18 Disc downloads do you think are from hard core Dylan fans, who if torrents weren't available, would go out and spend $600 on it. Wouldn't such hard core fans mostly be buying the set instead of downloading it to begin with? And if they aren't hard core fans, why would they want to buy Big Blue?
That would be nice, but it flies in the face of actual facts, as music sales (physical media and paid downloads combined) have been plummeting (and plummeting and plummeting) for many years now. There are at least two generations of listeners now who regard recorded music as a free commodity.
I don't know, but my guess would be significantly higher than your guess of 5-10%. To state the equation a different way, I think if this set had come out ten years ago Sony would have printed up 10,000 copies (instead of 5,000 in 2015) with full confidence they would sell out.
I'm thinking there are more groups than this ( or perhaps sub-groups). For example, those who may already buy many releases, but just can't afford some of the more elaborate sets out there, but want to hear it, so they torrent. Doesn't make it right, but it happens. When I was young, I could buy an album for about 3/4 of an hours pay. Now the same album runs about 1.5 hours pay, so being entertained has become more expensive for some.
You could also argue they would be plummeting faster if downloads/youtube etc weren't exposing kids to music. Lets face it, music doesn't quite have the entertainment value of movies and video games - which are ubiquitous now (everyone has access to them on their phone - legally). In my opinoin the plummeting of sales was not because of free illegal music, but because the industry failed to follow new social needs. The music industry was trying to sell overpiced CDs like 1990, when everything from the news to library books to video games were popping up for free online (legally). But this discussion is likely for a different thread.
That could be. But 10 years ago you couldn't stream netflix or Amazon prime on your phone anywhere. Today, I don't think many people are willing to pay $600 for music, regardless if it is free elsewhere ilegally or not.
Yes. The "availability of free" (or cheap, like all-you-can-eat streaming) has disrupted many industries.
Thanks for the update. I thought it would be sold out by now. Looks like there will be a copy in stock for me to buy in three days on payday. As for the download side, I don't have a clue how to download or convert this stuff. I'll have to find a kid in the neighborhood to do that for me.
... alternatively, I could go to Expecting Rain forum, where a lot of dedicated Dylan fans don't have the money or the credit to spend $600 on a CD set and share my temporary loss of sanity with one of them. Some people know it's insane, spending this much money on music when there is rent to pay, insurance to keep up with, an electric bill coming, their kid's education to save for, etc. I'll give someone the numbers and let them download it for both of us.
They may well have printed 10,000 copies of the 18-disc set in 2005 -- if such a set was even considered feasible -- but it would have cost a LOT less. The math in the music biz has totally been flipped from 15-20 years ago. Back then, single CDs were too expensive ($14-18), but box sets got cheaper and cheaper (per disc) as more discs got added. The total price seemed expensive, but an 8-CD set would cost less than $10 per disc. Most "deluxe" box sets back then topped out at 4 CDs, and they would typically sell for around $45 on release day. The Beatles "Capitol Albums" boxes were considered on the expensive side, and they cost $60 ($15 per disc). My guess would be that a hypothetical 18-CD set of outtakes in 2005 would cost under $200 -- maybe $250 if there was a REALLY nice book. Nowadays, on the other hand, they basically give away the single-CD and double-CD "best-of" sets ($8 for a single, $15 for a double), and jack up the per-disc cost in the "deluxe" sets by adding books, movie cels, scarves, marbles, etc. So a $600 18-CD set never would have existed in 2005 -- partly because Sony would have thought it implausible that anyone would even WANT an "every note recorded" set in the first place, and partly because the market hadn't been conditioned to accept outrageously lavish (and outrageously priced) box sets. Putting BS12 in context with the last two Bootleg Series releases, it's clear to me now that the 3-disc BS8 was not an anomaly but the first step in a "softening up" process that made the 18-wheeler possible. As for the never-ending downloading issue, I'm still pretty old-school about theft -- music should be no different than cars: If you can't afford it, you can't have it. "But I want a Mercedes!" Yeah, but if you don't have the money for one, you drive a Honda like the rest of us. Setting aside the poor third-world teenagers who desperately want to know what the hell went wrong with "She's Your Lover Now," I think the vast majority of people torrenting this set are either (a) quite capable of buying it with a little bit of financial sacrifice, or (b) if they really can't afford it, believe that they DESERVE it for some reason. Well, I may deserve a Land Rover, but somehow I'm still driving a 2002 Honda Odyssey.
I think Sean is spot on - remember Vol 1-3 of the Bootleg Series was reduced from 4 discs to 3 because they thought a 4cd set was too much and wouldn't sell. They could shift more 3 disc units. That was the logic in 1991. I think I paid £45 in 1991 for the set, which was pretty much the price of 3 individual cd purchases. Presumably a 4cd would've been £60.
No question, packaging and presentation would have been less expensive and less super-duper deluxe in 2005. Another reason why exact quantification is impossible.
Putting aside the issue of the price of the set for the moment, I would add a third rather obvious motivation for releasing the 18-disc set - which was of course, copyright protection for this material - among the most valuable of any still residing in Sony's vaults. The timing on this set was no accident.
True, but a "Complete BOB Sessions" box had been under discussion in the Dylan camp for many years. By the time they got to it, they decided to tack on the two 1965 albums for copyright protection purposes.
If any one needs assistance in downloading and tagging a copy for you, I'll be happy to offer my assistance
There are three different editions of The Cutting Edge. There's something for everyone. The Copyright laws forced their hand with this 1965-1966 material, so with the 18-CD set, Dylan & Co. turned it into something that the ultra-hardcore fans could be happy about, and that Dylan & Co. could charge a nice premium price for. The market can account for the fact that there are timely buyers for this product, and at the premium price. They turned a contingency into an opportunity - an opportunity to distribute the music in a handsome heirloom package, and to make some profit meanwhile. Who's to judge whether the price is fair or not? It's up to the individual. There is no right answer. Those that wanted it and could afford it, bought it. Those that couldn't, or didn't want to pay that much, have not or bought the other editions. For the rest that feel shut out of access to the 18-CD edition - financially, philosophically, or from the scarcity or otherwise - they can either live without it, steal it, save up for it, trade for it, or befriend someone who does own it. Dylan & Co. know all this. We know all this. It's pretty straight forward. PS What will be really interesting to see is what happens to the price of these 18-CD sets after they sell out.
Yeah, it's straight forward alright. Spending $600 on a box-set is extravagant even if you're rich nowadays. Few people can justify it. I can't justify it and I'm gonna spend the money anyhow. That's nice of you. Who will vouch for a Texan who is guided by invisible voices? anyone? I just hope the copyright protection live 1965 set has a hard media option. This downloading thing isn't real to me. I want hard media. I want to hold a CD in a case with cover art in my hands .
Yes, of course -- we'd been speculating about this for months. On a number of occasions, I've referred to BS12 as a "perfect storm" of (a) EU Copyright requirements, (b) Bob's three most iconic albums, and (c) the Bootleg Series. I don't think we'll ever see anything quite like it again -- even if sales encourage future "Collector's Edition" level releases, I don't think they'll ever require 18 discs.
I'm curious for those who have absorbed the 18 cd set so far. What are some of the best versions you've heard so far? If you were to make your own 20-30 track best of what would you suggest?
Agreed. In fact, I would say Blood On The Tracks is the only other Dylan album that would warrant commercially a COMPLETE box set. Although there are many other favorite albums that would be a goldmine to fans here if released in a Complete set, I don't believe Bob's management or Sony would delve that deeply and completely with any additional album.
How do you know John Wesley Harding doesn't warrant a complete box-set? Those sessions have never leaked out. There is probably one revelation after another in those sessions.
According to the tape boxes there are only - off the top of my head - 3 or 4 complete alternate takes in total.
I meant "Warrant" in a commercial sense. I personally would love a COMPLETE set of John Wesley Harding, Desire, and Love And Theft. Heck, I think a COMPLETE Street Legal would be fascinating. BUT commercially and media-attention-grabbing, I don't see any other album besides Blood On The Tracks generating that much interest. Again, just my opinion. But yes, they could do each and every album as a complete set if they wanted to.
