How does Line Magnetic compare to Decware, Leben, Manley and the usual suspects.

Particularly with valve amps, weight is related to the transformers, which are one of the key/expensive components.

Also, I'd toss Eastern Electric in the great, inexpensive amps designed/made in China.

 

I don't think the Shindo preamps photograph that well, but in person they are much better looking. The green paint on the chassis is immaculate.

 

The first time I ever saw a picture of Shindo gear I wasn't taken with the looks. I think with that brand one has to kind of "get it" and understand what goes into it, and as a result it kind of becomes beautiful to you.

When I think more about the question of what a very expensive preamp should look like, I think this same logic applies really. To some people an expensive preamp should have a glass face with glowing lights under it, etc. To others, knowing their price-no-object, built-to-order preamp is just a plain box with a knob on it might be more exciting to them, provided they know its pedigree and can picture the ancient master building it in his cave, etc.

 

True, but it's still just paint.

 

That depends on the tube compliment. With as many options as the Torii has - you can get it as neutral or romantic as you want. I feel Steve voices them from the factory with tubes that are on the neutral side, but you can keep tube rolling until you find what works for you.

 

I am only talking the visuals - it's when you look inside and have what is inside picked apart a bit do you see where some of the money/cost of the thing has gone. And indeed, I don't want the makers to be putting tons of money on the appearance of the thing. I want to see the parts inside. You can get a Mustang 4 cylinder that looks like the V8 but there is a massive difference in performance. Which leads me back to the point about Chinese and fake parts - you're paying premium dollars you should be getting both premium sound and premium internal parts (ie; you pay for the v8 you want the V8 not a fake V8 that when you open the hood turns out to be labelled v8 but is really the 4 cylinder). The reason AN for example holds value because a wider audiophile market will wind up wanting something they know has the real parts (sometimes exotic real parts) versus the thing where you say "ya never know what you're actually getting" - and with the Chinese - "ya never know what you're actually getting."

Even transformers and weight have to be looked at on case by case basis - and 845 to run safely requires significantly beefier transformers than an EL84 based SET amp such as my OTO - the EL84 just doesn't require 20kg transformers. And transformers being merely heavy doesn't mean they cost more to make or are better sounding. The OTO is kind of crushing overkill for EL84 I suspect.

So to Rolltide's post - I would look at Shindo or Audio Note first in the vacuum that is resale value and getting real parts. If however power and initial expense is the factor then those two may be out of reach financially - the LM 219IA is my compromise for me for the better sounding Audio Note Jinro. But the Jinro is $26,000 and so the 219IA is a quality compromise in a higher watt SET. But it's not like it sounds better than my OTO. Different and better/worse in certain areas.

I loved the Shindo Petrus - I'd like to do a head to head against the AN M3 and M6. I know some rather wealthy Audiophiles here in HK - one owns the Petrus AND the AN M8 - must be nice.

I agree that the pictures don't photograph Shindo nearly as well as they look in real life.

I'd kind of like to do an Audio Note M3/M6 VS Shindo Monbrisson/Vosne Romanee shootout. Pretty sure I could live the rest of my days with any of the 4.

 

Very good points. Any idea about what parts Line Magnetic uses or who makes their transformers?

Personally I've always thought Shindo amps look gorgeous. My personal favorite amp brands are Shindo, Leben, Line Magnetic, Decware and Manley. Two Japanese, two American and one Chinese. The fact that Line Magnetic sounds so good and that they have the same importer as Shindo and Leben gives me hope that they are an honest, quality, well built product. Honestly I've never really cared much for Chinese gear including brands like Jolida and Primaluna because of sound, quality and the various issues mentioned above. I'm hoping Line Magnetic is better

 

With Shindo and AN, you are paying a lot of $ for the name and "mystique" IMO. This is not to say that they are not great components, but the mystique of these brands has been carefully cultivated and is not purely accidental, and you are paying for that as opposed to some fancy casework or design (though I think good design is work paying for, but rare in the audio world). Sure the NOS parts and stuff are great, but let's not kid that the parts and fairly simple turret board or point to point builds is really a significant portion of the cost of some of these things.

As for line magnetic, I have not really heard them. but it seems fairly reasonably priced for what it is. as people said you have to be a little wary about some gear from china but I don't think we should disparage a whole country. there are certainly plenty of smart people in china who can design and build high quality audio gear.

 

Sublemon

You are quite correct - you are paying a premium for established brands and this is where there is some jewelry involved. If a brand is deemed prestigious though there is usually some fire with the smoke. Rolex is a premium watch maker and you are paying for that prestige but it IS a superior manual watch by most if not all standards so you are getting a superior watch - maybe it's Twice as superior but you are paying four times the price for that. But here is why I keep talking about NET cost. Because you may pay 4 times the price for twice the product but if you sell it for 4 times the amount - now you're paying roughly even money for twice the performance.

IE; you are paying for the "mystique" but when you resell it you are also able to resell that Mystique to the next person.

Shindo kind of sells themselves on Ken Shindo who meticulously selected rare parts and designed or redesigned tube amplifiers of old. You got an artisan piece. I am less convinced that he is so easily replaceable in death. Family members taking over the company doesn't mean much to me unless there is evidence they are capable - I have experience with father son outfits - the father was the brains and work ethic and the sons mopped the floor.

AN on the other hand sells you a design platform M3, M5, M6, M8 which are all the same preamp. At each price stage they sell you better parts. They illustrate the important in parts quality when you can audition the exact same design with a change in caps, wiring of transformers etc. Kind of like the watches where you can buy a Swiss Made watch with a $20 3 jewel quartz movement or the upper end version with the uber duber intricate gold 30 jewel movement at twenty times the price.

It's about how insane you want to get with this stuff. Line Magnetic is probably good enough - but there are people who simply must have that bit more. And again - these amps are all quite different in design. When someone talks about LM and Shindo or AN - it is important to remember that even WITHIN the company line-ups the amps often don't sound the same. The OTO and SORO from AN don't sound alike. They both cost about the same money the SORO maybe 20% more. Both are integrated in the same chassis - but man you have polar opposite responses in people's preference for these. Personally I greatly prefer the OTO as do many. LM is the same - the 211IA and 216IA are both about the same price - and they don't sound alike. You may like both but you're still going to likely gravitate to one or the other.

And it's important to note that BOTH Shindo and Audio Note offer quite affordable products. AN has the I-Zero, OTO PP, OTO SE, OTO Phono SE all of which are $2400-$5,000. Shindo has at least one preamp under $4k and I believe some other amps under that. It's still a lot of money - but it's not crazy money considering the "mystique" or "prestige" factor of them - hand made with real wages and real parts. You can spend $4k, $8k, $20k on Chinese stuff - where you're not quite sure. One of those pricey amps for example I recently heard was from Mei Xing - (remember they were Ming Da of the Rudycon caps). Maybe they changed their ways - but I don't trust them - just as I don't trust the American Companies - Theta or Lexicon.

 

I dunno... hesitant to sound like a fanboy but IMO the build (and sound) quality of the PrimaLuna amp seems pretty damn good. When researching the amp I came across this . I'm not techy and am not sure how it really relates to equivalents (or what the 'competition' amp he demonstrates is) but it's worth a look for interests' sake.

 

I ask what exactly he is comparing the Prima Luna too? Comparisons kind of matter because we can stack the deck rather easily by choosing to compare something to a complete pile of dredge.

Nothing against Prima Luna here as making a youtube advertisement can't cover everything the fellow knows or wants to say in a mere 10 minute max clip. And kudos to them for showing you the inside of their amps.

BUT

All Audio Note amplifiers form their cheapest I-Zero self bias (including their push pull amplifiers) - all of them have abnormally long tube life (ie don't run hot) - some of their tubes have 100,000 hour life expectancy! And AN generally avoids using what they view as low-fi pots like Alps or low fi connectors (like anything that is gold plated) - one man's high end is another man's McDonalds.

The argument about point to point wiring has always been spurious. It was originally done that way because there was no other way to do it - it depends on the quality of the boards. I am less familiar with Shindo as to whether they autobias as well but I am pretty sure they do. But this isn't a weakness anyway in and of itself. However it is a pain in the butt to bias - but sonically it should not be a detriment. Some things the fellow says isn't really accurate - I haven't needed to bias my 219IA in over a year and it is dead quiet - being dual mono it has certain noise advantages to amps that operate in Stereo.

Like anything - it's about specifically what you are comparing - for example there are plenty of $500-$800 tube amps from China - he might be comparing a $500 Chinese amp to his $1700 Prima Luna for all we know. Thus in fact the Chinese amp may not be too shabby considering the price point as it would be unrealistic to expect premium parts at a a very low price.

Here is where I suppose I will get called a fanboy but it is just stating the facts:

Part of what you pay for let's say when you compare the Prima Luna to an AN - Prima Luna buys their parts - they buy Sollen caps - fair enough - the difference is that AN designs and builds their own caps, resisters, wires, volume pots, knobs, connectors right down to their own solder material (silver) and their transformers.

Which parts does Prima Luna specifically design and manufacturer in house? Most makers buy parts from other outfits and are ultimately at the "mercy" of the tertiary companies to be as anal retentive about quality as you are. Let's face it a lot of audiophiles are pretty anal type A personalities that must have things just so. I kind of like the fact that Peter will make something and then when he can't get the supply simply stops making the thing - he doesn't cave in and say - well I'll just buy a part from Parts Express and stick it in - nope. Can't get a specific part made well enough for their turntable - well tough - I'll stop selling them until I design and manufacturer my own.

If Sollen went out of business tomorrow - then tomorrow Prima Luna would be using caps from another supplier. There wouldn't be a scenario where the owner says - damn sollen is the best so I will stop selling all of my products until I design and build my own. They will ALL just use something else available. Peter uses Black Gates - Black Gate stops so he buys the entire world stock pretty much of the things and then spends a decade trying to find someone to remake them. Certain caps are poor or not available - they design and build their own in house - which costs a bomb because a dedicated cap maker can sell to 2000 audio companies - but when you make your own cap you're basically just putting them into your own products (eesh no economy of scale there at all). Anal.

To be clear - this has nothing really to do with sound - but like prestigious items of any stripe - part of the "mystique" or "prestige" ultimately comes down to the lack of mass production of the parts.

 

The word on Eastern Electric is that they source the transformer cores from Japan, and that they are very high quality. They then wind them at their production facilities in China.

 

I really can't comment Richard (hence 'I'm not techy and am not sure how it really relates to equivalents (or what the 'competition' amp he demonstrates is) but it's worth a look for interests' sake').

All I know is the PL feels like a quality product, especially for its price. AN gear certainly sounds well designed/made.

 

I don't mean to be hyperbolic or repetitive...and I think the honeymoon phase is over....but I can still very easily say that the 518i is the most impressive component I've had in my setup. If diminishing returns don't start kicking in at this level, than the next step up in performance has to be incredible.

 

Finally got to hear one of these at friends house over the weekend LM-218ia Set amp with Harbeth speakers
Outstanding sound for the money & fantastic build quality

 

does anyone know whether or not Line Magnetic makes a phono stage for the Asian domestic market? and/or are there any plans for a phono stage? even a rumor?