Santana IV

YES or Tito Puente. !!

 

Who produced the album? I think Kevin Shirley would have done a great job IMO.

 

I want nothing like Smooth and I'm not sure this sounds like it. I'm happy with this so far. Not more cowbell, more percussion.........

 

Huh? If you prefer your music over compressed and brickwalled, then maybe. Unless he's changed his ways in the last few years and I'm not aware of it.

 

You have the first part right on this, but the second part could use some revision. A lot of this can be explained in what Santana originally was, as opposed to what it eventually became. Interesting thread, but I think there's been a tendency to paint Rockledge into a corner based on a few of his assessments, though they're not all off the mark. However I don't think there's any escaping the fact that Santana's guitar plays a central role in the band's sound, even if it didn't start out that way per se or by design. It was, however, unique enough to quickly become a focal point, rivaled only by the heavy emphasis on Latin/Afro/World percussive enhancements that are also central to the "Santana sound." It was these elements that set their sound apart (and with an additional tip to Rolie's organ and keyboard contributions that also play a fairly significant role, and of course his standout vocals. Let's keep in mind that many thought that Carlos was the man behind the mic, especially early on).

As for leadership, the band did not start out as Santana's baby. It was a collective from the start. There was no single, dominant songwriter, nor was there an alpha personality in the band. The group's namesake was more by accident and happenchance than anything else; it easily could have gone by a different name (recall initially The Santana Blues Band). Carlos was no more in charge than was Rolie -- or Shrieve or Carabello for that matter. There was no grand design early on either; the collective felt its way thru a fairly quick learning and maturing curve where they assimilated whatever seemed to work (and with the help of a few instrumental backers, namely Bill Graham). Santana and Shrieve fancied jazz and experimental approaches, Rolie (and later Schon) rock, Brown and Areas dance beats. Initially this "democratic" and multi-factored approach served the band well, though eventually it would help tear them apart. Where else have we seen this before?

It became the musical chairs of different players, and divergent attitudes and desired directions, that ultimately overwhelmed the band, all the more so with leadership lacking. Add to that their youth and inexperience, where the sudden influx of money and drugs and fame invariably went to their heads. It was only as the group was beginning to implode under this extraneous weight that Carlos attempted to take more charge of the collective. Part of his motivation was due to the fact that the group bore his name; implicit with that came the drive to take additional responsibility (something that wasn't always present earlier). For his efforts he basically got kicked out of the band. The others quickly came to their senses however, and realized there would be no realistic continuation of Santana the band without Santana the man, as the concert-going masses wouldn't have it (not after their famed Woodstock performance, where they were suddenly thrust on the cultural consciousness of the times, and on a national scale).

In any case, by the time Caravanserai arrived, the group dynamic had inexorably changed. This is where the demarcation line can clearly be seen and felt, and where Carlos began taking more control of the unit and overall direction of the band. It also led to Rolie and Schon leaving, though their departures weren't particularly bitter or divisive (which can't be said for certain other personnel who had been booted earlier). Those who remained had grown too far apart, and as a result that original head of steam was lost. There was no turning back by that point - and needless to say, not all preferred to follow Carlos down the more experimental path he and Shrieve favored (and thus enter Coster, Lewis and Peraza, et al).

As for the age old debate of whether the early, signature Santana sound was more due to Santana or Rolie, one listen to those early, pre-Perry Journey albums will tell you that there is no easy or clear cut answer to this. If there ever was a second coming of that "classic" Santana sound, it is to be found there.

 

I just want another good Santana album like "Santana" or "Abraxas". Not too much to ask?

 

It's hard to recapture old magic or bygone glory. But here's to them trying.

 

I LOVE the Jefferson Airplane too but do you all remember their reunion album? UGGGHHHH! Hoping this one is a lot better. The single is bland.

 

I would assume and prefer that Michael Shrieve would be behind production like in the earlier years.

 

I think it sounds quite good. Gregg's voice is still sounding strong too. Bring on April.

 

Gregg Rolie mostly, followed by Neal Schon as he pulled up the rear later on. Carlos mostly enjoyed taking free form flight.

Seems like a lot of chatter trying to downplay Carlos Santana's role in the band.

I don't think it's so much downplaying his role as much as it is coming to terms with the fact that this unusually democratic, largely leaderless constitution actually worked, at least initially. Pretty much to everyone's surprise. If anything is generally downplayed or overlooked, it's probably how much stability Gregg brought to the proceedings on the whole. He was the group's ballast, not Carlos, and the only member who kept his distance from the drugs as they began to increasingly flow.

Here's how I see it. Originally they were the Santana Blues Band, a group of guys that got famous together but make no mistake about it, Carlos was the 'talent', the voice, the gifted one. And its always been HIS band!

That is not an accurate description of how the band found their footing or took flight, however. It was much more complicated than that. Read my earlier post above.

Rolie and Shrieve were talented but certainly not superstar talented.

Citing Rolie alone, he rivaled Carlos as the focal point and driving force during his tenure with the band. Lead vocalists are often known to do that. What you're suggesting would be the equivalent of ignoring Mick Jagger to focus on Keith Richards, or dismissing Roger Waters to dial in on David Gilmour. Which is your prerogative of course, but it's hardly an ideal method to use when assessing where genuine or deserving talent lies.

Sadly, Areas, Carabello, & Brown were totally pedestrian musicians that could and would be replaced by guys whose skills totally dwarfed theirs.

That's again dismissing what each member brought to the collective, the sum of which bettered the parts. Moreover, they were all young and thus growing as musicians, including Carlos. Ask yourself, when was Santana better, or more exciting?

Schon, while being a good guitarist, basically was/is a shredder.

Miles Davis queried Carlos along the same lines: why a second axe when you can surely carry the weight? Only to go on to imitate the man himself years later with his own tandem teams. The fact is, Santana admired bands like the Butterfield Blues Band and Fleetwood Mac with their three guitar front. It was also said that Eric Clapton had his eyes set on Schon for a possible Derek & The Dominoes slot, but Santana grabbed him first.

Who do you think Bill Graham thought was the star of the band?

I'm not sure BG favored Carlos over the others, and I doubt he was pleased to see Rolie and Schon in particular depart when and how they did. I know Clive Davis wasn't too happy about their moving on.

They definitely had a group 'sound', I honestly feel that sound could be easily replicated by simply adding Gregg Rolie to his current line up.

That's debatable, but of course this same argument could be had for many (even successful) bands, couldn't it? They had already gone thru a good number of players to get to that original sextet as it was. They were also not averse to adding guest contributors (think Alberto Gianquinto, Rico Reyes, Coke Escovedo - even the Tower Of Power horn section) to enhance their sound further.

That said, I'm really looking forward to this as I haven't liked Carlos's music for a long time. I caught them at the Fillmore East during the Abraxas tour and later during the Caravansarai tour, I'm an old fan, got my fingers crossed!

I caught them likewise during their golden period, but came away with slightly different perceptions than you. But on one point we agree; a lot of what Carlos has turned out in recent years could use some extra -- oomph.

 

Santana - Anywhere You Want To Go (2016)

(Official release; longer than the streamed preview - 5:04 vs. 3:50.)

 

Sounds like classic Santana to me.

What's not to like ??

 

Main difference here is that the instrumental break is twice as long, which makes it a MUCH better track. (Still sounds kinda like War though....)

 

This particular track is nice, let's wait and see what the rest of the album is like.

 

Hmm. Was just gonna check it out but it was taken down already.

 

I don't agree with any of this. You're making up most of this with zero facts! There is nothing factual!

 

Still working for me.

 

Hard to re-create things like that. I'm sure we will hear what they can do at least. I'm looking forward to it.

 

This is the one part of your post I'd quibble with. Those early Journey records are great, but they're a departure from the Santana sound, mainly because there's no Latin element (save for a couple moments on the debut). It's certainly related to the early Santana, but so is the Caravanserai music.

 

What part ? The girl or the whining .-

 

Strange. It says "Sorry, this video is unavailable." Underneath the video, when I scroll over a picture of a lock, it says "This video is unlisted. Only those with the link can see it." I even opened it right on the youtube site and got the same thing. Oh, well.

 

I agree, I don't see what Schon and Rolie took with them to Journey. They almost went Prog Rock on the early stuff. Santana has always been in control.
Just check out the number of different players he has gone through over the years. But there is always that signature sound, his guitar and an incredible rhythm
section, right up front.

 

Tried it again, and still working. Maybe it's a Canadian thing.

 

haha. Maybe. Let's hope the delivery of the album works here.