So I bought an Ortofon 2M Black cartridge.....

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Johnny Vinyl, Dec 3, 2012.

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  1. Scott222C

    Scott222C Loner, Rebel & Family Man

    Location:
    here
    So what about that Review now ? :D
     
  2. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    What you get out of the 2M Black depends on the turntable and arm and also how well you have it dialed in. I started with a 2M Bronze then upgrade the stylus to Black while running a Pro-Ject Xpression II. I spent the whole time trying to dial in the Black and never really nailed it. A big part of the problem was that the cantilever was skewed abut 2-3 degrees and the dealer refused to take it back stating that it shouldn't matter! (I still deal with the guy when he has equipment I need or good deals, but I'll never trust his expertise again!). Carefully lining up to the cantilever worked for most records, but for those cut hot, there was just no way of getting rid of sibilants. Plus, surface noise was indeed far worse with the 2M Black than other carts I've used (except my first Ortofon, an OM20, which also seemed to be bad for surface noise). After I switched to my Pioneer PLX-1000, I was stunned at the difference. The 2M Black sounds far nicer. Surface noise seems much less of a problem and not really any different from my other carts (same goes for the old OM20. It sounds far better on the Pioneer, in fact, closer to the Black than I expected). The Black needs to be carefully aligned and with proper VTA (something Ortofon mentions on their web site). After checking my stylus carefully with a jeweller's loupe I realized that not only was the cantilever skewed, the little "foot" part of it that holds the stylus is at a slight angle compared to the cantilever. Once I aligned to that part of the cantilever and not the shaft, the sound really fell into place. It can really be very 3D-like. It still doesn't have the "laser-like" clarity of my AT150MLX on tracking highs, but it has, to use a popular expression on this forum, "the breath of life."
     
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  3. Scott222C

    Scott222C Loner, Rebel & Family Man

    Location:
    here
    Thanks Stefan, so push comes to shove, you would prefer the AT 150MLX ?
     
  4. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    It's hard to choose a definitive preference. For one thing, my AT has a new stylus whereas my 2M Black has at least 200-300 hours on it. My phono stage is a Lehmann Black Cube with a fixed 100pF capacitance. When I ran my AT150MLX before (7 years ago), I had a Cambridge Audio 640P, which with its fixed 220pF capacitnace made the AT almost painfully bright. I removed the input capacitors from the 640P and that tamed it a lot. I don't feel like doing that with the Black Cube, so custom loading is the only way to even out the AT. I found that putting 47k resistors in parallel to bring the total loading impedence down to 23.5k really flattened the AT treble response nicely, but the cheap resistors I used seemed to impart a graininess to the highs. I've since ordered some "audiophile" metal film resistors but I haven't yet had time to dig out my soldering iron. In the meantime, using EQ matching software, I've been able to compare a test record pink noise track with generated pink noise and come up with a compensating EQ that when applied to needledrops makes the AT sound incredible and very close to the 2M Black but with slightly better tracking for problem records (the reissue from a few years back of Dire Straits's S/T LP is a good example. The second side especially was cut with really hot sibilants). However, the 2M is not flat either on my system, it just has less of a rise in the high end than the AT. When I EQ them both to match pink noise, they sound very close and very, very nice.

    I can't help wondering how good the Black would sound with a straight cantilever so I could really align it properly. I've asked for one of those USB microscopes for Christmas so if Santa is generous I may get to tweak the alignment even further, but I suspect perhaps my Shibata stylus may not be mounted perfectly straight in the cantilever, so getting in there and seeing just where it's at might squeeze a tiny bit more accuracy from it. However, even with that, if you consider that the cantilever is not straight and its "foot" is also not straight, even aligning to the point where the stylus is perfectly placed in the groove, the rest of the cantilever will not be vibrating at its intended position according to the design of the cartridge so it won't be providing ideal performance. Perhaps I'm getting overly concerned about this, but in all my experimenting with alignment, I've often been astonished at how much alignment really does effect the nuances of sound. Folks state all the time that it's not as critical as some think, after all, there are only two points in the arc where alignment is theoretically perfect, but I still find that with every cartridge I've tried aligning, there's always a sweet spot where the sound seems to fall into place. With cartridges like the 2M Black and AT150MLX, the imaging really does take on a 3D quality to it where you can hear not only width of soundstage but depth. Anyway, I digress... Both cartridges are a good choice. Just be sure you check the cantilever before purchasing or buy from a place with a good return policy as the problems I've had with my 2M Black really encroached on my listening enjoyment over the years.
     
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  5. un4gtbl8

    un4gtbl8 New Member

    Location:
    California
    I have a 1200 MK5, new Ortofon Black 2M, and a Black Cube Statement. A bit new to the scene and was wondering about the DIP switch settings for the 2M on the Black Cube. Instructions are a bit cryptic, but I understand that the cube is set up to work with the MM cartridges out of the box? I think I'm hearing some clipping in the highs and the bass seems to be pretty exaggerated. Wondering if I need to use any of the internal gain jumpers for this setup. Thank you for any advice, tips, or tricks.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
  6. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    If your statement is like my Black Cube, there's a gain jumper inside. When I got mine and tried it with a 2M Black, the output of the cartridge was too much with the Black Cube, which came with the high gain jumper on. Once I removed the jumper, it was perfect.
     
  7. un4gtbl8

    un4gtbl8 New Member

    Location:
    California
    Yes, it comes with the gain jumper installed. I will remove it and report back.

    Stefan, see you're from Canada, you'll pleased to know that I'm running all Paradigms as well, haha!
     
  8. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    I had major siblance issues installed on the same table and ended up selling it for an AT150MLX. Major sound improvement across the board and sold the Black here. I suspect I may not have installed it carefully enough as I know that cart is loved around here, though I seemed to have no problem installing the 150 just fine. No tracking issues at all now. I would love to get your comments once you have your's dialed in! I normally love the Ortofon sound.

    Are there others here that could offer opinions on the two? I am using a Creek 15 preamp. I need to upgrade a cart on another turntable and wouldn't mind moving the 150 to the other and upgrading the 1200 turntable cart. Do you guys think I simply didn't align the Black correctly, or is my Creek preamp not a good match? How is that preamp compared to others in that price range? Sorry....yes, I probably should have started my own thread! Sorry to the op, but maybe these comments will be relevant to him too.
     
  9. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    Yup...that describes my problems as well. See above post. I went to the 150 and everything tracks beautifully, but I am blaming myself and my install, not the cart. Thanks for taking the time to post...I think in the end you are saying both sound great, but the 150 tracks challenging records better. To me, that is more important than a slight improvement in sound, possibly, with the Black. In the end, the Black sounds like far too much trouble. The 150 seems to just "work".
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
  10. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I tend to agree with your assessment. Sure cartridges are warm not bright. I have the V15 Type IV for this reason. It has a Jico stylus and it presents better detail without brightness that many of the Audio Technica cartridges have.
     
  11. katstep

    katstep Professional Cat Herder

    Over the past couple of weeks I've been fine tuning my VPI Traveler with an older 2M Black. After listening to a friends system (whole different cart and setup), I realized that mine was too bright, which sometimes led to sibilance and exaggerated highs. After some experimenting, I went back to a more tail end down adjustment, which really tamed the sibilance and opened up the mid-range. The overall presentation was much more natural. I love the easy VTA adjustment on the Traveler. It's amazing what a difference fine tuning VTA can make. I agree with others that the Black can exaggerate surface noise. I had a Bronze for a while and it seemed to reveal far less surface noise. YMMV
     
  12. Randy Van Ooyen

    Randy Van Ooyen New Member

    Location:
    Sandpoint, Idaho
    Tho I have not been in the vinyl long enough to have familiarity with tons of carts, I have had a few in my two systems. In our cabin's system, I have run both a Denon 103R MC, an Ortofon Bronze, and recently I switched to an Ortofon Black. My TT there is a pretty modded technics SL1200mk2, EAR 834P phono with rolled tubes, and Parasound separates. I can tell you that for me, the Black blows away the other two. I also run a pretty decent MC on my home system, a Lyra Delos. The Black holds it own with that $2K cart, at least to my ears, only the Delos has some final resolved airy highs that are otherworldly. I have not run into a huge increase in surface noise with the Black vs the Bronze, MAYbe a tad more. But then again I play squeaky clean vinyl in mostly top notch condition. As others have said, the Black loves to have its VTA dialed in to get the most out of it. After much research, I have found this link:
    http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_method_e.html
    I purchased the particular record (its pretty cheap) and this method absolutely stunned me with how different that track part will sound with a dialed in VTA, with EVERY cart I have tried this with. I thought I had my Lyra pretty dialed in (since its on a 12" SME tonearm) but after running thru the test track, I was way off.
    Don't get me wrong, the Bronze is no slouch, warm and pleasing and a tracking champ, and I was skeptical after reading how much better the Black was, but now I am a believer. Its truly one of the Bargain Class A rated audiophile components out there.
     
  13. un4gtbl8

    un4gtbl8 New Member

    Location:
    California

    Removed the internal +10 dB L and R gain jumpers on the Black Cube Statement. The clipping or sibilance seems to mostly dissipated. I think the lower end bass has cleaned up a bit too, on some newer albums it was quite boomy. Maybe its just these new recordings, the 30 year old LPs sound great though. Vocals and guitar sound amazing, great detail. Thinking of trying a Pro-Ject Tube Box S maybe complement the 2M Black a bit more than the Black Box??, arrgh too many choices.

    For sound reference I'm using a recording uploaded to YouTube by HiFisquarepants, stream it to my receiver thru HDMI. Don't laugh, this guy is serious about his stuff. If you haven't been to his YouTube pages yet, let me apologize in advance, be prepared to spend some time there, the quality of the recordings is amazing. He's running almost the same setup including the MK5 and the 2M Black. After comparing my setup and his for Brothers In Arms, I think I'm getting close.



    I asked him (HiFisquarepants) about the break in period for the 2M and his response was:

    HiFisquarepants 7 hours ago
    +LILGTO6 Wow, thanks :) I'm glad you found inspiration in my videos :D IMHO the Black/Bronze start to mellow gradually from the minute 1 and get to their sweet point at around 100/150h. Anyway they sound good out of the box ;-)

    I'll respect his opinion any day in regards to the Ortofons.

    Thanks to all for helping out in getting this dialed in. And Randy, I'll check out your link for the VTA adjustment,
    http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_method_e.html
    Need to do some more learning on this stuff, and VTA.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
  14. JorgeGvb

    JorgeGvb Senior Member

    Location:
    Virginia Beach
    Once you go black.... :D

    I have had mine for about a year on my VPI Classic 1 and have been very pleased.
     
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  15. BigGame

    BigGame Forum Resident

    I install 2M Black last week on my Transrotor darkstar with SME 309.
    Still need to wait but it sound from the first minute beautiful.:righton:
     
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  16. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    ?
     
  17. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    So nice to have familiar songs used for demos and not some obscure jazz piece! Sounded good.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2016
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  18. dharmabumstead

    dharmabumstead Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    The 2M Black is brilliant. For me, it *really* started to shine after about 50-60 hours of burn in.
     
  19. Nubben

    Nubben Well-Known Member

    Location:
    London, UK
  20. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    Same thing here, skewed cantilever and they say it is a feature not a bug... the Black is now sleeping in a drawer.

    [​IMG]
     
  21. Nubben

    Nubben Well-Known Member

    Location:
    London, UK
    @Jimi Floyd and @Stefan - isn't the skewed cantilever a manufacturing fault meaning you could request a replacement?
     
  22. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    In thoery yes but my dealer wouldn't take mine back claiming it doesn't matter. I've also read that Ortofon claims it doesn't matter either. Bollocks!
     
  23. OcdMan

    OcdMan Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    Sounds like a convenient stance to take after QC goes downhill. :thumbsdow
     
  24. honestabe316

    honestabe316 Analog Rebel

    I'm about 4 hours in on my Ortofon 2m. Black .....what can I expect as far as performance after the 40-50 hour break in time?
     
  25. ARCCJ

    ARCCJ Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    These are the reasons I no longer own a 2M Black. Horrible tracking and impossible to get aligned because everything is so messed up in manufacturing (and these alignments are done w/ usb microscopes to the correct SRA vs. incorrectly cranking on the VTA until it "sounds better"). My cantilever was also off, not only skewed a little to one side but also rotated in bushing so that azimuth was off. Once a microscope confirmed that they could not even align a square diamond squarely in the end of the cantilever is disgusting at the price they want for this black turd. The dealers and ortofon's "F U" attitude to my complaint was the last straw. I could not sell this with a good conscience so I sold the body with disclaimer the stylus was bad.
    Never again will ortofon's trash come into my system..
     
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