That Sennheiser HD600 Veil

OK, I am posting this because I was tinkering around last night and discovered that the "veil" that is often associated with this headphone was gone.

I am not posting this to debate on whether or not such a veil does actually exist - this of course is subjective to the end user and largely determined by the type of sound he/she likes and what other types of headphones they have listened to in the past.

For me, I am coming from AKG 702's. Comparing the two headphones, they do sound quite different. Many who have heard the 702 will say it lacks bass. Compared to the HD600, I agree with this. I will also say that those who think the HD600 has a "veil" have probably used a headphone like the 702 that is incredibly open and detailed.

So, this all started because I recently purchased HD600's for use in a separate system. I rip a lot of vinyl and when I am cleaning things up, my system chain looks like this:

Laptop PC -> USB out to Parasouund Zdac -> Analog out to Head Direct EF1 headphone amp -> AKG 702 headphones

My plan was to keep this system for post production of vinyl rips down in the listening room and use the HD600's upstairs via a laptop and an Audioquest Dragonfly V1.0 DAC to enjoy music in another setting. As part of this second system, I wanted another headphone amp with a small footprint to keep upstairs. I read and posted threads looking for suggestions which have since included: Schitt Asgard2, Schiit Valhalla 2, Meier Jazz and a couple others.

Up to this point, my listening with the HD600's has been with the Head Direct EF1. It sounds good, not sure if any of these other suggestions will better it. I briefly tried the headphone amplifier in the Zdac...but I don't care for it much.

So last night, I'm using the HD600's connected to the EF1 which was getting data thru the Dragonfly. I listened to a number of lossless songs from various vinyl rips in 24/96 and CD's in 16/44. The Dragonfly was alright, but nothing special. The headphones sounded as they have since I first bought them a couple weeks ago.

For fun, I decided to use the Zdac instead of the Dragonfly. Now, this did mean I was using a different cable from the DAC to the headphone amp - in this case, some MIT interconnects. The sound was a bit bigger compared to the Dragonfly, but still had the same general sound signature.

Alas, there is a third DAC downstairs which resides in the main rig - a Musical Fidelity M1DAC. So, I decided it would be worth trying that one out. Due to its distance from the rest of the equipment, another set of interconnect cables had to be used, this time it was Signal Cable Analog 2 feeding the signal from the DAC to the EF1.

Holy Mother of all things criminal! The headphones opened up for the VERY first time. The bass was still good, but less thick and sluggish. But the treble and upper mids now had air around them! It was like merging the highs of the 702 with the mids and lows of the HD600 - crazy stuff!

Now this was late last night, so I have more experimenting to do. DAC or cables? I'm guessing the DAC, but I can't be certain at this point. I also realize that the sound can/will change with a different amp. If nothing else, this just makes acquiring an amp that much more difficult as I have something else to think about now...either DAC or cables.

I think most in this hobby feel that making any changes to your system will affect the sound to some degree. However, I was really expecting the amp to be the main driver of the sound I would get with these headphones, but now I think the issue is much larger than just the amp.

I am going to try the AKG 702's tonight in the same setting and see if I get similar results or if these changes are just happening with the HD600's.

More to come...

 

are you sure the M1DAC isn't tipped up in the treble?

 

Nope, I am not sure of anything at this stage. But I will say that M1DAC is in my main rig which includes Magnepan speakers, and I don't notice any extra emphasis in the highs while listening to it. Maybe I will notice that the 702's are REALLY bad now when used with that DAC - I will find out soon.

I will also say this, the Signal Cable interconnects have a very low capacitance...and that could also be a factor as well.

Much to try...

 

A DAC with a larger and more open soundstage will help remove the Sennheiser veil. However, a better amp with a bigger soundstage will do more to remove the veil than what you experienced with the DAC.

One of the things I listen for when trying amps and DACs with the HD600 or HD650 is how well do the ear cups seem to disappear. Better amps and better DACs will help the HD600 ear cups do a bit of a disappearing act. The more the veil is removed the more the ear cups do that disappearing act. Another way to looking at it is that with lower quality amps and DACs the sound seems to be pumped into your ears by the ear cups. With higher quality amps and DACs the sound will seem to be existing outside of the ear cups. The sound is just out there and around the ear cups rather than being inside the ear cups and pumped into your ears.

 

I think I am going to purchase a Schiit Valhalla 2 and see what comes of things. I am going to need an amp regardless of what my follies turn up in the process...

 

Interesting. I owned Sennheiser HD600 about ten years ago and recently owned AKG Q701 which I believe are the same as yours. It has been too long since I heard the Senns to describe them but I know the AKG were easily the most open and detailed headphones I had ever heard. However even with my Schitt Valhalla amp bass was almost non-existant on most music. I now use the AKG K712 which has been designed with improved bass over their other phones. I am pretty happy with this headphone it is still more spacious and detailed from what I remember over the Sennheiser and is no longer so anemic in the bass.

 

So I was listening to my 10 yr old HD600's last night while recording CDR's through the big rig via my Tascam CDR recorder. What I'm about to discuss isn't new to me, it's something I've noted through the years and I'm sure many have experienced it. We all know how the Senns have transparent grilles that allow sound to bleed in AND out. Listening to the cans while sitting near field to the rig and leaving the speakers ON. Talk about enhancing every aspect of the listening experience! Soundstage blooms and the air being moved by the speakers adds a physicality to the listening experience. Muting the speakers after having listened to a few tunes is actually a let down! Of course, this isn't the way headphones are meant to be used and listening like this is counter-intuitive but it sure is fun!

 

Phones can change over time, but with Sennheisers I've only found their lower end phones to break in significantly. In models like the 600 and 650, as well as their sound engineer portable closed back, I've heard very little dramatic break in. In other words, excellent manufacturing tolerances.

 

I don't think I knew what HD600's sounded like until I got the balanced Pono cable for them.

 

The Valhalla 2 is a very good amp to pair with the HD600. It's likely going to be my next amp. Be sure to get a nice pair of NOS tubes for it, they'll improve the sound beyond the stock tubes.

 

The little Pono does de-veil the HD600. I'm not sure how much of that de-veiling is due to the DAC and how much is due to the amp. It's difficult to decouple the DAC from the amp in a device like the Pono.

One experiment you can try is to use the PonoPlayer as a source to an amp like the Lyr. Try the HD600 with the Lyr and Pono combo. It'll sound pretty good. Nice enveloping soundstage. And will manage to de-veil the HD600 in a way that's different than other DACs with the Lyr. Playing around with that setup will let you explore how much of the de-veil is due to the DAC in the Pono and how much is due to the amp section in the Pono.

 

I've used the Pono with the Lyr before, but I prefer with the balanced cables straight out of the Pono. I will say there's something to be said for the unlimited headroom of the Lyr, but when I use the balanced cables it just feels like the trifecta of power, detail, and control/precision/overall musicality. I stress the balanced cables because I think with the normal stereo cable the Pono/HD600 combination is decent but nothing special.

 

Same. That really is a magical combo.

 

Interesting, I've never heard a " veil " but I've only heard my 600's with one amp, the EarMax Triode.

 

I heard the veil with the 598's. I listened to them for 20 minutes, packed them back in the box and went straight to ebay. Worst headphones I have ever heard. (And yes, they were the real ones)

 

To be fair, the HD598 is veiled compared to the HD600. There is a reason why the HD600 is considered hi-end while the HD598 is more entry level hi-fi. The veil you hear with the HD598 is not the same veil that people with the HD600 complain about. Completely different. The HD600 is much more resolving than the HD598. More micro-detail. More soundstage. They're not even close if you're using a high quality headphone amp. The HD600 just pulls away and leaves the HD598 in the dust.

The HD598 (and the HD600) are not hyped in the treble or bass. They are designed to sound smooth. Hyped treble can initially sound more detailed, but eventually gives way to just sounding fatiguing and annoying. The HD600 manages to have detail without crossing over to fatiguing hyped treble. That's a delicate balance that many more expensive headphones fail at. The Senns are headphones you can listen to for hours.

The irony of this Sennheiser veil belief is that there is no veil. It doesn't exist if you use a good headphone amp. Listen to the Senns on an amp like my Cavalli Liquid Fire and there is no veil. None. No veil. Just clean transparent sound making the HD600 sound almost like a low-end electrostat headphone. The veil does not exist if you have a good amp.

 

Oh, I used a good head phone amp with the 598's. It didn't help. I actually had a couple friends warn me not to buy them. But I ended up getting more for them used, so it wasn't a problem. These are seriously the most over-hyped headphones of all time.

 

I agree these phones are over-hyped. I had a chance to test a pair and wasn't really impressed, but to be honest I wish I had a little more time with them to see what all the shouting was about. I can also attest to the fact that the 558's I ended up buying ($50 after using a Best Buy gift card) did get much better over time, especially in the bass.

 

The drivers for both the HD600 and HD650 were updated like a year or so ago. The veil is gone. If you look the drivers are now are silver not black.

 

I always thought it was the 650 that had the infamous Sennheiser "veil". My 600s through recapped vintage receivers and a Schiit Vali sound fantastic. They are crystal clear in every aspect and seem to be quite neutral. Even the Onkyo C 7030 CD player drives them quite well which is odd.

 

Over at Head-fi there's an HD600 thread that's been active for years with 1000's of responses. I read most of it before bowing out a few months ago. RE: the 598's, the consensus seems to be that due to many of the same parts being used between it and the 600, the sound signatures are very similar, with many saying that it's not much of an upgrade to go to the 600's. Pretty much saying you get much of the same sound at a fraction of the cost. I've never heard the 598's so I have no opinion. RE: the new drivers vs. the old, many claim that there's NO difference besides color! Mine are 10 yrs old so again, I have no opinion. These tidbits I'm throwing out here are the opinions of boatloads of Sennheiser users though!

 

I have a HD580 and HD600. Both are about 15 years old. They have the old drivers. I also have a HD650 purchased a few months ago. It has the silver mesh over the drivers. Neither the old HD580 or HD600 nor the new HD650 have any Sennheiser veil when played with my Cavalli amp and Schiit Gungnir Multibit DAC. There is no veil. The presence of lack of veil is not due to the change in drivers. Rather, the presence or lack of veil is due to the quality of amplification and source.

I actually prefer my old HD600 to the new HD650 for audiophile style listening. Midrange happens better with my old HD600. As an example, the Bing Crosby test that our host mentioned happens better (on my headphone gear) with the HD600 than the new HD650.

 

Ouch! Oooph! Easy, guys—you're beating the hell out of my 'phones. The blows are coming fast and furious. Uncle already!

Actually, I'm not a big headphone guy (don't even use a dedicated headphone amp), so I don't have much to compare the 598s with. Maybe our differing opinions are due to the music we listen to. I'm a classical guy. In fact, I bought the 598s because some poll of reviewers proclaimed them the "best" headphones for classical music on some website somewhere. I gave them a shot, and I quite enjoy them. But I don't use them often. I prefer images of the musicians in front of me rather than inside my skull.
-Bob

 

Music listening choice does have a lot to do with how suitable you'll find the Senns and how much you may like or dislike them. Their sound is more suited for classical and vocal and folk than rock. They have a reserved style of sound and don't have the punch and drive that many people want for rock. But for classical and vocal and similar music the Senns are very nice and very well suited. I'm listening to Dvořák right now with the HD600.

I also listen to classical. Which is a reason I have liked the Senns. I also listen to rock. I just let the Senns do their thing when I use them for rock. I have other headphones for when I want a more aggressive rock experience. But often the Senn sound just suits me for many styles of rock I like.

The HD598 are fine headphones. And if you're not using a quality dedicated headphone amp the HD598 could even be a better choice than the HD600.

It is possible for headphones to have sound that seems to be outside of your head and projected near your forehead instead of inside your head. The sound is more outside your head than typical with headphones, but still very tightly coupled and close to your head. Headphones aren't going to be able to do what speakers do. Getting headphones to sound outside of your head like that is a matter of holographic amplification, good source, and good headphones that have a large and deep soundstage. It can be done. But gets expensive and takes you into the high-end range of headphone gear. However, there are ways to cheat by using software like Out Of Your Head that create a virtual speaker style of sound using DSP. Try the Out Of Your Head demos. You may like it.

 

Okay, I'll take your word. You do have more experience than I. My HD600, which I had no complaints about, were over ten years old and just plain worn out. I am more than satisfied with my new 650.