RCA digital vs toslink optical

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by SKATTERBRANE, Feb 13, 2016.

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  1. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Do you now understand that the spdif out is disabled in your player when playing a SACD. Multiple posters have stated this before my first post so I thought it was obvious to you!

    The conversion from dsd to pcm in a player is only when using HDMI. Not sure why this is important to YOU since your question is about spdif.

    If the original recording was pcm then a conversion to dsd is done before authoring to SACD.
     
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  2. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Yes, so all SACDs are DSD, got it. It matters not whether the original recording is analog or PCM, when it is put to SACD it is converted to DSD.

    Somewhere the DSD it converted BACK to analog, no problem there.
    When someone tells me that DSD is not put through the RCA outs, then I was confused, I thought it was converted to PCM and THEN put through the RCA outs. As it turns out, it is not the DSD that is disabled, it is the RCA out are disabled when playing a SACD. That renders my concern about degrading the SACD sound quality to red book CD moot.

    So, I guess ALL SACD players or multiple format players that include SACD cannot got to an outboard DAC using DSD unless they have a HDMI provision both out the player and then back in the outboard DAC and both units are designed for such a transfer of DSD data. That is unlikely because of the copy protection agreements and designs in equipment. Apparently DSD is so precious that if copied to make files, it will render the physical media obsolete and unmarketable.....oh wait.
     
  3. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Try using the terms rca's for analog only and spdif for digital, otherwise it's confusing. The reader of the posting thinks you may be confused.

    Spdif is old, very old and was way before SACD came along. It was around before DTS even, yet it can be used for that wrapped within a pcm format. Do a bit of reading on the Spdif connection interface and you will quickly be up to speed.

    HDMI can output SACD in both dsd and pcm formats. The reason some like to convert to pcm is to add eq and speaker distance settings that you cannot do if you keep the output stream dsd. Also many older HDMI receivers can't handle direct dsd output streams...
     
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  4. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Okay Spdif. As old as it is, there are many here who seem to prefer it over optical. And I understand HDMI has many technical problems that have to be "fixed" or addressed that is not inherent in Spdif. The only equipment I have with HDMI is my cheapo Costco Vizio Bluray and TV. My audio equipment is from the 80s and 90s (except my CD players).
     
  5. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    If SACD can be output in PCM like you say, then why couldn't that PCM be output through the Spdif or optical? And IF it is output in PCM then would the signal be degraded to red book CD quality? This is the what I am talking about. This is what I want to know.
     
  6. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Spdif can be both optical or rca. Read up on it, you are almost there...
     
  7. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Well damn, that is why I have been referring to it as RCA vs optical, as I am talking about digital outputs, not analog outputs.
     
  8. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Talking in circles here.
     
  9. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Screw it, I am abandoning the whole SACD thing. I am selling my Pioneer multi player once I get it, and connecting the Maverick to my CD6004 hoping for some relief from this digital hunk of crap.
     
  10. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Your not getting the stuff people, including myself is posting. Didn't I just post that Spdif is an old, very old connection that pre dated the SACD format. Like others have mentioned, the format, SACD has copyright issues. Also the bandwidth of spdif can't handle it.

    Yes there is a conversion to pcm but is at a higher resolution than a CD so on paper it can sound better. Some people like direct dsd and give up eq and speaker distance processing that you can do over pcm. Good luck.
     
  11. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Get a ps3 and rip your SACD to your computer... or stick to DVD audio and hires downloads.

    I personally won't give up SACD because of multichannel audio, but that's just me. Peace
     
  12. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Unsubscribed!
     
  13. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Your username is certainly truthful!
     
  14. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Thanks for trying to help me out, one and all. I see there is no affordable solution to my playing SACD through an outboard DAC. I appreciate your patience with me.
     
  15. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Yes, I read that Sdif predates SACD, that does not automatically imply that it is not compatible with SACD. All I wanted was a way to use an outboard DAC to play CD, SACD and DVD-A better than the built in DAC that comes in a universal player. And I have learned I would only be able to play CD and possibly DVD-A (at a lower resolution) through the outboard DAC. I know I am not going to like the inboard DAC, so I will abandon the multiplayer, and put it up on Ebay the day I receive it. I will use the DAC to HOPEFULLY improve the sound of my CDs.

    This all started with when someone mentioned later model Laserdisc players make an excellent transport to use with a modern DAC for red book CD playback, which evolved to the top of the line Pioneer universal DVD player might even be better because you can also play DVD-A and SACD plus they make a great transport. So you can see by implication I THOUGHT I could use the Pioneer DVD universal player as a TRANSPORT and play my SACDs and DVD-As through an outboard DAC. I read reviews on the Maverick which seemed sonically favorable to the Cambridge DACMAGIC and I was off to the races. Then I noticed that the Maverick did NOT have a digital out, (like he Cambridge does) so I could not place it between my CD player and my CD recorder, and I was wondering if I could use the RCA digital out from the DVD player to the CD recorder and the optical digital out to the DAC.

    Now I know that having a multi disc player cannot take advantage of an outboard DAC, (other than CD) unless HDMI is available between the two units. I would have to spend a lot more money on much more modern and new equipment. I would have been better off just buying a nice laserdisc player as originally intended, I could have used the DAC to upgrade the sound and have a monster of a transport.

    The suggestion of using an old universal player and an outboard DAC is what totally through me off course. This is the thread:

    Laserdisc for CD playback. ยป
    Towards the bottom of the page:
    "In a best-of-both worlds consideration, how about a used pioneer universal player from the mid-late-200os (they were highly regarded for their transports; I had a few), and add a new DAC. The latter has considerable bearing on sound characteristics. and is available in a wide variety of sonics and price points. The uni would add SACD capability."
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2016
  16. gd0

    gd0 Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies

    Location:
    Golden Gate
    Never a good idea. With very few exceptions (maybe none now) TVs send a mixed-down, dumbed-down audio signal to your amplifier. I know it means even more expense, but source players should be connected directly to amplifier / AV receiver. That's why so many recommend Oppo: idiot-proof analog and digital connections, and every format can be played.

    That's the most complex and frustrating solution of all. :laugh:

    All this may be moot. Digital ANYthing may not be the answer for Skatter. Or at least he's setting himself up for it. I can say this much: digital rigs cannot be set up to faithfully replicate all the vagaries of analog rigs. Technology evolved in audio to more precise, tight audio playback. That may not be to everyone's liking.
     
  17. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    I want to hear the body and dynamics of the Sheffield Labs LPs I Got The Music In Me by Thelma Houston or The Rose by Amanda McBroom or Ab Elegy by Adam Makowicz. The CDs do not come close, my CD-r copies of these recordings for some reason get me almost there. The commercial CDs are not in the same ballpark. I am not setting myself up, I have been trying to solve my problem intermittently for 16-17 years now. Every once in awhile I get a bug up my ass to try again, only to be disappointed. Then when the memory of the sting fades, I try again .

    So, let's go another direction. Oppo. Do I have to buy the flagship model? It seems it is the ONLY one that has a dedicated stereo audiophile concern. All the less expensive models seemingly sacrifice the stereo audiophile aspect and retain the video and multi-channel emphasis. It would solve a few problems for me:

    1. I can play SACD and DVD-A with a modern DAC that may sound better than an entry level outboard DAC such as the Maverick.
    2. I can replace my VIZIO unit and still have Pandora and Netflix streaming, and a few other streaming services that have come up since my VIZIO purchase (If I can afford more subscriptions?).
    3. And low on my priority list, is probably better picture. (I was happy with my tube TV to tell you the truth, I am not into video).

    I do not care about surround sound. Not a factor. I do not have a "home theatre" setup, just a nice stereo.
     
  18. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    What would be an older Oppo flagship model I could get more cheaply used, maybe a unit that predates 3-D bluray, but has a dedicated stereo audiophile aspect?
     
  19. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Or save some cash and get the Cambridge 752BD, which is the outgoing forerunner to the CXU. Same DAC (5 x Wolfson WM8740). The only difference between it and the CXU, styling apart, is the addition of Darbee video processing in the CXU. Otherwise, for stereo or multichannel music playback, it's pretty much the same player.
     
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  20. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    With respect, but this line of thinking should be taken out and shot.
     
  21. Chris_G

    Chris_G Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    If all you are playing is CDs or data CDs with MP3s or other formats on them, then go with Toslink Optical cable. That's what I use between my CD player and MD recorder. Even though MD is compressed to 292kbps, the digital signal using optical cable makes the recordings on MD transparent to the original CD source.
     
  22. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    It's pretty straightforward - Sony pretty much have the licence for SACD by the nuts. You can get SACD playback via regular RCA analogue out, or these days, via HDMI and you might be able to switch settings on your AV player to stream the DSD playback direct, assuming the source player handles it at its end too.

    Outboard DACs traditionally did not "do" SACD/DSD, but recently the likes of Teac have introduced the capability into their standalone models. Otherwise, nix, nada, and ixnay on the Toslink.
     
  23. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    So do you like diet soda then?
     
  24. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    I'll pass on the aspartame thanks. Digital I'm fine with, it's been of an excellent standard for years and is my sole means of playback - CD, SACD, DVD-A, HDCD, various file types and the odd download.

    IMO, it's not the medium that's the problem because it doesn't have one, rather, it's the users.
     
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  25. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    I am been thinking. I guess I will go analog out to my preamp when playing SACD and DVD-A on this unit. I will go digital out to my DAC when playing red book CD. I have ONE more preamp input left, the tape 2 input.
     
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