Prince's Music Vault

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by zphage, Apr 22, 2016.

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  1. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    Well I wonder if by law (and whether true or not she'd probably argue) that as his closest living (full blooded - sharing both parents) relative that she should have more rights to control the estate in the absence of a will and that the half siblings should remain silent partners/beneficiaries - Basically "Just shut up and cash your checks".

    That seems to be the deal with Hendrix's actual blood relatives while his so called "sister" calls the shots since Jimi's father left her in charge of the estate when he died.
     
  2. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lake Tahoe, NV
    Yes you can. Close relatives will often challenge such a will in court and can sometimes get somewhere with that, but if the will is written carefully enough, you can leave it all to your dog if you want.
     
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  3. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lake Tahoe, NV
    My understanding is that Minnesota state law doesn't give her any more rights to anything. I'm sure she's arguing that with the rest, but unless they agree (and why would they) she's not going to just get more control.

    I suppose she could always go to court and plead a case and see if a judge would grant her more control, but there's a couple of years right there....
     
  4. Matthew Tate

    Matthew Tate Forum Resident

    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia

    yup here if you will says the neighbor gets everything and they aren't related to you then that's who gets it
     
  5. kanno1ae

    kanno1ae Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas, USA
    Yes, I agree with this. But isn't your statement "he may have wanted control over his stuff while he was alive" contradictory to your earlier statement "he really didn't care about it all that much"? I'm trying to follow your logic between those two points.
     
  6. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lake Tahoe, NV
    I'm just speculating about all of it. I have no idea what he thought.

    All I can say is if he cared about it a LOT he probably would have made sure he had it covered in a will. And if he cared about it even less he might have set all the old tapes on fire. Why even have a vault?

    So obviously it was somewhere between those two extremes.
     
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  7. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    I believe a clause can be inserted into a will that says if anyone challenges/contests the will, they will inherit nothing, not even what the will otherwise stipulates they should inherit.

    Or perhaps I've just been watching too much TV/movies. :p

    Anyone know for sure?
     
  8. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lake Tahoe, NV
    Again, I think it really varies from state to state. I don't know how many federal inheritance laws we have.
     
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  9. kanno1ae

    kanno1ae Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas, USA
    I don't agree with this. If you have no wife, no kids, and no family you are close with, it would be understandable if you don't give two rips about what happens to your stuff after you are dead. While you are alive, though, you can certainly care a LOT about your stuff and still not be concerned with a will.

    IMO, I think he did care about his Vault and catalog material. Otherwise, why not let the lawyers strike up a licensing agreement, let it be released, and make some extra cash off of it? Instead, he chose to focus on making new music and reaping a much larger share of the profits from it. Considering he fought to get control over his catalog, I wonder if he did have plans for it. The deluxe Purple Rain never came out after the new agreement, but perhaps it was because WB was asking for what Prince considered to be too big of a slice of the pie. I recall reading a Prince comment where he was basically blaming WB that the reissue had not come out yet.
     
  10. 99thfloor

    99thfloor Senior Member

    Location:
    Sweden
    Well it seems that is what she thinks, but it is said that siblings and half-siblings are treated equally, so I'm not sure where she thinks she's going with this.

    I always thought that in the case of Hendrix it had something to do with Janie being adopted and legaly treated as a sibling, but I see now that there was a will involved.

    Wow... I didn't know this.

    Yes, I don't think this is so strange. I have a pretty large record collection (as I imagine many of the members here have) and I take care of and value it, I wouldn't want to sell, give or lend any of it away, but still I have never given any thought to what will happen to it after I'm gone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2016
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  11. stodgers

    stodgers Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montana
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  12. Lovealego

    Lovealego Senior Member

    Well it seems there is no will or estate plan. What an idiot.

    Yes there are clauses you can put in a will that leave anyone who disputes it with nothing (my dad has that in his)
    Also yes having your estate go into probate not only means 50% or more go to taxes (death tax) but another huge chunk of it goes to state probate fees which is not fee based but % based. Probate can take months and what's left of the estate is divided up (assuming no more lawyers get it all from lawsuits between heirs) it leaves very little left. His $300MM valued estate can end up under $100MM. Divide that by 6 and each only get $18MM. Not enough for any of them to buy Paisley Park from the estate.

    For instance in this case, Paisley Park is toast.

    By the way... people wonder why wills could leave all assets to non family members. Most people don't realize that most churches in the US have greatly benefited from wills and estates. I have a family member who decided to leave her millions to a school of special needs.

    Believe it or not large inheritances can do more harm to a family than good, so it is not uncommon for large inheritance to be trusted to something that benefits more from it than family members.

    Not sure whether or not most people know this, but estate plans, trusts and wills were really all developed to keep the wealth from being diminished and was particularly useful a long time ago for land owners which is what a lot of wealth was based on. You didn't want your land to be sold off to pay taxes, you wanted to pass it down. These days wills seem to be more associated with "who gets what" more so than "keep the property within the family"

    I wonder if the physical tapes in his vault will be split up among the heirs who could all do something potentially different with them. It seems to be a large portion of his calculated wealth.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2016
  13. edenofflowers

    edenofflowers A New Stereophonic Sound Spectacular!

    Location:
    UK
    How does anyone put a value on the vault? Do they just count the total as the value of the tapes therein as if they were blank?
     
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  14. DreamIsOver

    DreamIsOver Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago IL
    I was just thinking the same thing. Especially in this era of diminished sales.
     
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  15. Lovealego

    Lovealego Senior Member

    Also one last comment... The lack of will shows that not only was he "alone" and had no one that he felt close enough to share his wealth with, but also that he had no particular cause or organization that he cared about either. Which is very odd to me for someone like him.

    I do know he was married and had a child who died. They were on supposedly good terms, I am surprised he didn't have estate plans drafted when he as married and had the child and then revised with the loss of child and divorce.

    All this sets us up for disappointment when it comes to ever hearing any music from The Vault.

    Maybe we will get some rereleases of his albums. Even with no added content, it would be nice to have them accessible again.
     
  16. stodgers

    stodgers Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montana
    His lawyer has been somewhat silent so far on this; he's made comments, but not said 'there is no will'. It may be that there is something in place, but that there are things that need to be worked out before that can be brought forward (possibly his autopsy).

    And he had a great many organizations he cared about. Just google Prince YesWeCode for one of the ones that has become most prominent in the discussions of his charitable giving since his passing.

    But I feel the utmost sympathy for the notion of him in being alone at the end. He seemed to be, from all accounts, a very generous and genuine person, but somewhat socially uncomfortable. I imagine he found his 'life partner' through his religious efforts, but I hope he also had found solace in some of the people who were close to him.
     
  17. 99thfloor

    99thfloor Senior Member

    Location:
    Sweden
    It has been said that he didn't own Paisley Park, that Warner owned it, not Idea if that is correct.

    I think that was really only me, and it was because these thing work differently over here, so I didn't know this. In Europe I think there have been, in different parts, two traditions, one were family inherited everything, no matter what, and another where it was instead all controlled by what was in a will, and these traditions have been combined in the modern day, so that here in Sweden at least you can control where half of it goes in your will (if you make one, which I think isn't really all that common), but the other half will always go to surviving family members, if there are any.

    It is a bit strange if he didn't want to leave anything to his former wives, since he seemed to have been on good terms with both of them. That he "had no particular cause or organization that he cared about" is not correct, there have been reports of him being involved in many organizations and donating lots of money, but that he forbade any of the people that were involved in this to mention it, one reason being that his JW faith did not allow him to talk about "good deeds". There was a very touching TV interview with one of those who had been involved with this charity work and that had decided that this part of his personality had to come out. But again, that makes it strange if he didn't want to leave anything to those causes either.

    The only answer is that he hadn't really thought about this stuff at all, and that he had no intention of "leaving" any time soon, I think this is quite common.

    But there are reports a Judge has confirmed there is no will, so wouldn't that make it final?
     
  18. Lovealego

    Lovealego Senior Member

    Very good point about the autopsy/will. I think most of the current news on this topic is media frenzy on no factual basis. It doesn't help that his sister grieved for 30 seconds and then jumped into making sure she gets what she thinks is coming to her.
     
  19. stodgers

    stodgers Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montana
    Sadly, not by a long shot. Not having a will filed doesn't mean there isn't something, somewhere. The man did like to produce videos after all!

    Prince may not have left a will, but he may have left instructions for the establishment of a foundation, trust, or something else. These instructions may not have been tied to his death, he could have been in the process already of creating this. I tried to look for the lawyer's exact comments, but to no avail. I just remember reading it a few days ago and thinking it was rather cryptic.

    I think the only thing we can say for certain at this point is that this is going to be a legal nightmare.
     
  20. dprokopy

    dprokopy Senior Member

    Location:
    Near Seattle, WA
    I believe Minnesota allows a person to file a will in "secret" with a probate court, and its existence and contents wouldn't be made known until a final death certificate is filed - i.e., after the final autopsy report is issued, which could still be a few weeks away.

    There's some useful actual reporting here: Who Will Get Prince's Fortune? »

    I would imagine Kyka's move to put the estate in trust was probably a preventative measure to keep the vultures (inside and outside Prince's life) from sweeping in and laying claim to everything before it's all settled.
     
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  21. RichC

    RichC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    I'm a Dylan fan and I couldn't jump on that. BUT I might do it for Prince.
    A recent 30-disc set was released for free through underground channels... It's basically "A Year In The Life of Prince" from 1986. You've got some amazing Parade shows (only 12 dates in the USA)... The final Revolution show in Japan... The tracks for the unreleased albums Crystal Ball, Dream Factory, and Camille... Multiple discs of additional outtakes... And this is JUST pulled from circulating bootlegs. Imagine all this and more, in perfect studio quality.

    And that's ONE YEAR. Prince has similar riches (amazing live shows and outtakes) from basically every year in the Eighties and beyond. And this is just the stuff that circulates... Most of it is poor quality (like the 1986 NYE show where Miles Davis comes out to jam on "Beautiful Night" for half an hour) but Prince supposedly kept soundboards of everything.

    A well curated release program could be like Dylan's bootleg series and Dick's Picks combined... If they don't screw it up.
     
  22. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    Well - I doubt that - especially if Minnesota (or local) law allows Paisley Park be turned into a Graceland-like Prince museum. Since it has been in many ways a money generating commercial complex all along (with fully functioning I'd assume state of the art professional recording studio, that I'm sure many artist would love to book going forward - even moreso if the studio retains the majority of Prince's instruments and other equipment for their use.) the family would be wise to retain it as such if at all possible.

    Plus (according to Kevin Smith anyway) a Prince insider told him that Prince had filmed IIRC about 50 professional level music videos at Paisley Park (with sets/costumes etc) to accompany unreleased songs (which along with those songs just go in the vault) He said the insider responded to his quite understandable question of - "Um - Why?!" with a shrug of the shoulders - "I don't know". So that leads one to assume he has a fully functioning film production facility within the Paisley Park complex as well.

    He also has some sort of auditorium/theater there since he's been known to play shows for fans/friends there. He also held dance parties there - I would assume in a large ballroom type setting. This IS Prince after all - I can't see him just moving the coffee table and couch out of his living room to make room for dancing like any of us would have to do.

    Even if they're hit with a massive tax bill, I'd say Paisley Park is definitely the second to last thing they should sell to pay it off - his catalog of released and unreleased music/films etc would be the last.

    Both of these assets are such a potentially huge source of future income they'd been absolute morons to part with them unless they 100% absolutely had no choice. I guess its possible that each sibling could say "I want my share of the money NOW! - sell everything immediately and give me my share". But I can't see any competent advisor supporting or agreeing with something so stupid. The "Prince Brand" is far too valuable in regards to future revenue generating potential .

    If they're smart they'll keep it as a "family business" with (is it) six(?) shareholders/siblings taking their dividend checks, and its probably best (from a business perspective anyway for none of them to have control of decision-making. They should hire the proper people who know how to best exploit the estate's holdings for maximum profit (within the bounds of taste anyway - I heard once that Hendrix's family were offering Jimi Hendrix branded diapers at one point) If so that must have been Janie's call.

    And that's my point. The family members are too close to it, and as a result are the one's most likely to make a mess out of it.

    1 - The infighting over everything from general direction to specific projects would slow progress to a crawl.

    2 - Ego driven stupidity of any one or more of the family members like "I'm a business genius - check out my idea everyone - Prince branded tampons" - or whatever...

    3 - leave it up to people who know what they're doing - and if the family members don't like what they do, fire them (vote them out) and get someone else who knows what they're doing.

    If they want to start generating cash now they could accept the offers that Prince almost always turned down - they should start licensing his music for use in TV & movies and (I'm personally no fan of this, but hey its their asset to do with as they wish) use in commercials.

    The "Prince Brand" is potentially a massive cash cow, if handled correctly. If the family members are patient, refrain from seeing each other as enemies, and put the business decision making in the right hands, they could all be multimillionaires from future income streams, and potentially set up their own grandchildren financially for life as well.
     
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  23. stodgers

    stodgers Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montana
    I don't know much about his family situation, but I think this assumes that they have any sentimental attachment to the things that Prince himself held dearest. I would like to believe that as well, but logically, the first thing that will go will be the one thing that will provide the immediate funds to pay a tax bill, and property is easier to sell than licensing or rights. And his passing only ensures that the value of everything will be jacked up by the government so they get a bigger piece of the pie.

    That's the parts that disgusts me most. To Prince, those vault items were priceless. Now the government is going to force them to be valued, and potentially sold to cover the taxes they incur. Sickening.
     
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  24. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    I'm no lawyer but that seems utterly preposterous and unworkable on its face!
     
  25. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    Again - utterly preposterous!

    There are methods on which to place a generally acceptable value on his holdings of unreleased music. His sales in life/his sales spike in death/the examples of other posthumously prolific artists such as Elvis and Hendrix. Its a guestimate really, but you gotta start somewhere.

    I do wonder however if the value of the tapes wouldnt be taken into account for tax filing until they start being utilized for commercial use. What I mean is taxes wouldnt be levied on them/their value until/unless they become monetized through their commercial release - sales generated/the terms of any contracts that are signed with third parties (record companies) for their licensing/release.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2016
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