Ortofon 2M Black too loud?

Exactly!

This same thing happened to me with the 2M Black. It is a very loud cartridge indeed.

I noticed saturation in needledrops and I isolated the problem in the cartridge signal, through my phono pre whose gain is not adjustable, saturating the input stage of my soundcard. As dartira just said, any attenuation in soundcards is digital, so useless to solve the problem. A pair of RCA line level 6dB attenuators like these I had at hand solved the problem effectively, any other legit mean of reducing your gain before the soundcard would do, to take the stylus a bit away from the body is cheating. hope this helps.

 

Possibly. I know in my case, lowering the gain of the pre-amp fixed the problem. That suggested to me that there are at least two gain stages in the pre-amp, one that can be attenuated, followed by another that gets overloaded if the incoming signal is too hot.

 

Yes, I reduce the input volume to -6dB as per Barry Diament's recommendation to maximise headroom. All carts I've used have provided clean input with peaks at or below -6dB but this can, of course, be adjusted by software. I tried altering the software attentuation but all that happened was that the square waveform just got louder or quieter.

 

Thing is, it shouldn't be. It's advertised spec is 5.0mV, compared to the Blue's 5.5mV. I appreciate that these things are exact but I expect the Black to be roughly the same volume, maybe even a little quieter: not significantly louder. If it's producing an output that is causing overload when it passes through my phono stage, surely that's a design/manufacturing fault?

Presumably, it would be better to introduce attentuation between pre-amp and integrated amp rather than prior to pre amp, partly to avoid attentuating a (relatively weak signal and introducing noise) but also to avoid increasing capacitance in the system? Alternatively, I could insert them between integrated amp and soundcard but that would give me a louder monitoring signal in headphones). Although I instinctively feel that I shouldn't need to do that for a £500 cartridge, I'd be willing to do so if it solved the problem.

Edit: The attenuator solution is currently impossible for me because I don't have a pre-amp (although that's about to change soon). So, presumably, anyone with a 2M Black but no dedicated phono stage (or with an integrated amp with built in ADC) is stuffed...

Truly, I'm shocked by this. I can't believe that the audiophile community would be so keen on a cartridge with such an obvious design flaw.

 

Just to add something to my earlier post, my findings (2M Black much louder than 2M Blue) have nothing to do with needledrops. Just very noticeable when listening through speakers.

 

So, I got home early today and - in advance of getting a replace cartridge fitted - I thought I'd do some experimenting with the remainder of my system. Put simply, I popped in a CD, and tried to record something to my laptop. Of course, this isn't a recommended way of making recordings: that D/A then A/D conversion is simply pointless but it did show something up: my "CD-drop" suffered the same saturation I noticed when needledropping my 2M Black.

This would imply that the issue is related to the soundcard (as suggested by @dartira and @Jimi Floyd) and not the cartridge. However, it doesn't explain why I've had no problems with my 2M Blue or previous Nagaoka cart.

 

Most CD players are very hot on the output side as well. The 2M Black is certainly the hottest cartridge I own as well and I think mine was also higher than the blue. The output ratings are for a very specific rate of deflection (5cm/second). It is a good reference, but not the end all. It's possible you have two things going on, a phono stage and a sound card each with very little headroom. Also the Black is more finicky about stylus position than most.

 

I can't believe so many people are reporting that such a well respected stylus has been sold/marketed in a way that is totally unrepresentative of its specs.

 

I`ve had two 2M Black styli and both were hotter than my Bronze (which may have been less hot than it should have been). However, the bigger issue with mine was that both had cantilevers that were skewed by 2-3 degrees. Te dealer refused to accept them for return claiming that Ortofon claims it doesn't matter. For a stylus profile as sensitive to proper alignment as a Shibata, it seems to me that it matters a lot! As for aligning to the cantilever and not the cartridge body, well that helped but they still couldn't track sibilants anywhere nearly as well as my AT150MLX or DL301MKII (and yes I tried all variations on VTA and VTF). In fact, the best sound I got out of my 2M blacks was when I experimented with aligning by ear and got nearly perfect, 3D holographic sound when the whole cartridge body was about 3° counterclockwise from the tonearm, which is about 4-5° from where it should be! I almost left it like that thinking that perhaps the stylus was poorly mounted to the cantilever, but I decided to go with the Denon and AT instead once I got a turntable with removable headshell.

 

My problem with the 2M Black has been some harshness and prominence, typically heard in the hi-hat sound. I suspect some ringing of the cantilever, since no change in loading and no alignment change was able to cure it. I must add that I noticed this effect on few records at first, and only after starting to listen for it I could hear it as part of cartridge voice on every record. I found the 2M Black not as pure as I wanted in the reproduction of non-periodic high frequencies, but otherwise an exceptionally dynamic and natural sounding cartridge. Please note that my speakers have a really live and detailed tweeter, with soft and mellow speakers that part of the 2M Black voice can even make many records sound more alive.

 

This si what I find so maddening about my experience with the 2M Black. It can sound incredible with really three-dimensional imagery but the hot cut sibilants just ruin the listening experience.

 

If I can ever get my cartridge sorted out to my satisfaction, I'm hoping that my soft and mellow speakers will compensate for any harshness.

 

I was very kindly sent a pair of 10dB attenuators and, while I can't test them on my table/cart (it's still back with the retailer awaiting a replacement), I popped it into my system in a couple of places to see what impact it had. Firstly, I connected them to the outs on my CD player, then I tried placing them in my amp out (that sends the rec signal to my soundcard).

Using CD as my (only) source the attenuators do noticeably reduce record volume but it's still coming in far too hot. No idea how much attenuation I'm going to need but 20dB wouldn't seem out of the question. What baffles me is that I needed no attenuation at all using my Blue. Was it really outputting 20dB less than a) Elton's Songs from the West Coast CD and, b) my Black? Of course, the input volume from CD is neither here nor there: I won't be needledropping CDs but my interest is just how much louder that CD is to the volume of the 2M Black...

I suppose we'll just have to see. The big question is: If the Black also requires 20dB of attenuation to avoid saturating my soundcard, is that going to adversely affect the quality of needledrop?

And while I'm here, can I ask a potentially dumb question: my soundcard has a single jack that doubles as Line In or Microphone. Does it matter if I set the software to use the jack as a Mic rather than Line In? I ask because I can use the soundcard's (hardware) Mic input volume control. This is different to the overall max rec level settings that are software controlled. Is it possible that using the Mic in and adjusting the input volume that way could solve the problem? I've been using Line In but it occurs that there might be two ways to skin a cat...

 

No. a cart can't "clip" the signal. Clipping is, as you ask below, a combination of a high output coupled with too much gain, or a low overload point in the preamp.

Yes!

 

Inline attenuators normally need to be connected directionally. The male RCAs on the attenuators would need to be attached to the female RCA inputs on the amp when connecting the CD player to the amp, or on the input of the sound card (you'd need a dual female RCA to 3.5" adapter) when going from the amp to the sound card.

 

Well said - similar setup and reaction here. I've found, for my system, a Grado Statement Master to be better for imaging, mids, and bass.

 

A summary of where I'm at, a) to ellicit discussion because there are some really knowledgeable people here and, b) because I feel the need to get this out of my system!:

There seem to be two issues at play:

Soundcard:
the soundcard is an external one: an Asus Xonar U7. It has a button on the side of the card chassis that allows mic input volume to be adjusted in increments but does not affect Line In input volume. There is a separate volume adjustment possible using the software. This allows me to adjust the maximum peak level of recordings made either using Mic or Line In. Remember, both use the same jack. I have this volume set at -6dB to ensure that peaks don't exceed that. It doesn't compress the signal any, just keeps the record volume down.

Cart/stylus:
I was able to get natural/normal signal input using the Blue stylus on a Silver (modified Red) cart and also - once I'd identified a problem with the Black - using the Blue stylus on the Black cart. This seemed to suggest that the problem lies with the Black. As you can see from my earlier screen shots, the Black just produces square waveforms with flattened peaks.

I haven't been able to confirm if the problem is related to the stylus because my table remains at the shop awaiting a replacement. However, I did try recording CDs through the soundcard just to see how it behaved and what difference a pair of 10dB attenuators made. My Elton John "Songs from the West Coast" CD proved very loud (it probably is) and it took 20dB of attenuation to get the volume down such that peaks occurred below the -6dB threshold. They still looked a little flat though, suggesting to me that the original recording has flat peaks. So I swapped the CD for something from the 80s that would be so loud (Elton's Reg Strikes Back, as it happens) and this looked much better.

I'd be happy to accept that the problem really lies with my sensitive sound card and insert some attenuation into my system but:
1. The soundcard came recommended by several users for the purposes of needledropping. I can't believe it would have done if vinyl sources needed such extreme attenuation (or at least without the caveat that it does).
2. None of the soundcard issues explain why I was able to get perfectly satisfactory 'drops from my Blue. Given that both have roughly the same quoted output volume, one of them must be either faulty or improperly set up. And the fact that the Blue 'dropped perfectly suggests that the fault isn't with the soundcard...

 

This may be too obvious but are you positive the Asus control panel is set to Line in and not Mic in?
Needing at least 20 dB of reduction when recording from a line source, even a loud one, sure sounds like there's some preamplification going on.

 

The Asus control panel is set to Line In. I can set the maximum record level using the software but all this does is create a "larger" or smaller version of the same waveform. That is, I get a larger or smaller brickwalled waveform. Changing the setting to Mic In, I can adjust the rec level using software but I can also adjust it using a switch on the chassis of the sound card, which alters the level in increments. It also adjusts the rec levels as shown in the software. It allows me, rather crudely, to get the waveform looking more "normal" but only when the rec level is reduced to almost zero (about 4% of max).

All this suggests that something has gone wrong somewhere BUT doesn't explain why I've been able to get perfectly good needledrops using my 2M Blue and, while testing the "faulty" 2M Black I was able to get a perfectly good input signal using my Blue stylus on the new Black cartridge.

 

Gotcha. I agree it's strange that the outputs of your Blue and Black styli on the same body vary so wildly.
Can't really find any other reports on that so maybe your Black stylus is faulty after all.

 

I'm hoping so. If it isn't I'm left with a problem I don't know how to solve and an inability to make new needledrops using equipment I was previously able to do so with. Not sure where I'd go from there. Anyway, we'll see what next week brings in terms of a replacement stylus.

 

You can find a post earlier in this same thread where I reported it. Mine has nothing to do with needledrops, but the Black stylus is noticeably louder than the Blue stylus.

 

I haven't read every post so this might have been brought up already.

I was doing needle drops using a Bellari phone preamp that had a output level control and a Usb output.

I could easily adjust the output gain to about 75-85 percent before I noticed any drop in the quality of sound.
But....
I was overloading the USB output, causing the recorded waveform to clip.
It took some trial and error to get the output gain of the preamp and the record level on the computer to give me recordings that were unclipped but at the volume it wanted.
I think your preamp is outputting too high level for usb.
Does it have any gain control?

 

But it shouldn't. It's advertised as having roughly the same output.

 

I would agree if I hadn't been getting perfectly good drops before changing the cart.