So are vintage turntables really up to par?

Since I posted this several years ago I picked up another Dual from Bill, a Dual1229Q. I've owned quite a few turntables over the years, my first was an AR bought new in 73, but I really enjoy the Duals. The 701 is terrific direct drive table and 1019 and 1229Q are solid idlers. Still wouldn't trade them for the world. I use Shure V-15 III DU cartridges on the 701 and 1229Q and a V-15 II on the 1019.

 

One thing that vintage turntables do is maintain the musical pitch. Very loud musical passages can slow the turntable down because of the additional drag created while pulling the stylus through loud grooves. Because they are often driven at the outer rim, they provide more torque than a direct drive turntable, which applies the torque at the spindle. Thus, music will not slow down during very loud passages.

 

I've owned a Thorens TD-160 Super since 2008 and I absolutely love it. I had a Music Hall MMF-5 that I sold shortly after picking up the Thorens. I'm not sure how my Thorens compares to higher end new tables but I probably will never find out, I am completely happy with it.

 

Tell me about it. I got my TD-160 in 1977.

I've checked out many tables since, but that Thorens has spoiled me for life.

 

This is the first I've heard about this phenomena. How is that even possible? Records and platters are enormously heavy compared to the minute force of even the heaviest tracking styli.

How much of a pitch difference is this - worst case scenario? I would imagine the type of mat used would be a factor as well, right?

 

Memories of my pal's AR turntable!! I did sound lovely but you had to sit still!

 

Probably no more than a fraction of a cent pitch change, the audibility of which depends on your ear's sensitivity in that area. A heavy platter will smooth quick speed variations, but the physical slowdown from loud passages takes a few seconds, so it's audible. By the time the servo detects the slowdown and speeds the platter back up, it's gone. I've heard it on my JVC which has an extremely heavy platter. But an idler drive turntable doesn't HAVE a servo!

 

First that I have ever heard of this also. My ears aren't too sensitive though.

 

Could you explain how this happens? I've never observed this before. I don't believe that "loud grooves" cause any more drag on the motor than "soft grooves." They can be harder to track but that has nothing to do with the speed of the turntable.

 

Also wouldn't a d/d turntable with a quartz speed regulator automatically compensate for any slowing of the platter caused by drag? This sounds like the kind of nonsense belt drive fans came out with in their 'phony war' against Japanese direct drives in the eighties.

 

Having owned a 160s through the 80s I would say it falls short of a good modern deck in terms of resolution. Should have kept it instead of trading it in for peanuts so could try some modern tweaks. I regret letting the Mayware arm go more though. In contemporary terms it had v good bass but in other areas a Planar 3 or Linn Axis were slightly better. A Gyrodec is a much better sounding deck to the stock Thorens item. It is not in the league of high end decks. The few vintage decks that are competitive are now both expensive to buy and restore. If you want something pristine something like an Audiograil 401 isn't such a bad buy in this context. It depends what presentation you prefer. I still think a restored and tweaked Lenco can be good value and great sounding if you must have an idler drive.

 

I use an Acoustic Legend turntable via a Goldring G1042/Arcam/Slee/Chord/B&W chain...all old school,and not "high end"..but I do not think I am missing out on much by going "new"...

 

I agree, this doesn't make sense to me either. That would have to be an awful lot of resistance to affect the speed of a platter audibly.
In all of my years of listening to vinyl, this has never come up.
I guess it's possible if the stylus mechanism is very stiff you could hear something during loud passages.
Something like a speed drop should be able to be measured with sensitive enough equipment.

To be fair, I did find this related to 'stylus drag' as I was searching prior to posting:
Those famous "needle-drag doesn't exist" tests ... - Vinyl Engine »

 

If one has done some tests of the differences between the drag in a silent groove and in some 'loud music' one would know that there is no difference.
This can also be shown by looking at force vectors at play.
It might look intuitive to some that heavy modulated grooves will slow down the platter, it isn´t so. The drag is friction and to overcome that takes very little torque.

Also there is of course no importance if the torque is applied at spindle ot at periphery, none.

 

I agree with you. Heavy modulated grooves can of course exert more drag, but the resulting torque demand increase is so subtle that any well designed turntable should easily comply with it.

 

All I can say is I've never noticed this, even on my lowly BSR belt drive with its pathetically weak fixed DC motor and ultra lightweight platter. And I consider myself to have a modestly sensitive sense of pitch.

Which is not to say it isn't a real thing.

 

I would answer the OP's question "Yes", if and only yes if you select the correct vintage table AND if your definition of tweaking includes substantial upgrades that incorporate and utilize modern advancements in materials and technology. I believe one of the best examples is the Oracle Delphi. (I happen to own one) The latest MK VI version is IMHO a fabulous performer that can compete favorably with some of the best modern tables out there. When you compare the new Delphi with the original model, it is easy to see that much of the initial design principals and basic form have stood the test of time. What is more difficult to see are all the little changes, improvements and advancements made over the years. While the suspension towers are much the same, internal materials now incorporate the use of delrin parts. Micro vibration dampers have been added. Of course the motors and associated electronics have evolved over the years along with bearing development that now uses PEEK thermoplastic parts. Good news is that owners of older Oracle Delphi's can purchase most all of the new and improved parts directly from Oracle and upgrade to essentially MK VI status for much less than a new table.

Certain older or "vintage" tables can be made to sound as good or better than many of the new offerings, and often at a lower cost. Be mindful that in order to do so, be prepared to do a lot of research, hard or tedious work, and be ready to shell out some coin to upgrade parts and technology. I personally enjoy "tweaking" gear, so this is the road I choose. If you don't like to get your hands dirty and want instant gratification and guarantees, save your money and buy something new.

 

Loud passages DO slow down the turntable. I can only report what I hear. And I've HEARD it. Just because someone else can't, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Sorry.

 

It's of HUGE importance. Turn on the turntable. Now stop it with your finger at the outer edge. Easy. Now stop it with your finger at the spindle. Difficult. If you want to loosen a rusted bolt, you use a LONG wrench, not a short one, for this very reason. And that's where belt/idler turntable have an advantage, higher torque because the force is being applied to the outer edge, not at the spindle.

 

Of course, none have stated that a lower force cannot be used at outer edge to stop the platter. But that doesn´t mean there is any importance in applying the torque at outer edge or at spindle. We can do just as we please.

 

This is definitely audible, and was exacerbated by some of the bad servo designs on earlier DD turntables.

Worst record for this - the beginning of Hello Goodbye on MMT, UK cut. You don't know what's wrong until you compare to a table that doesn't slow down, or the CD.
(Wall Street Shuffle by 10CC also does it)

Oh, and sometimes the same effect is cut into the record itself, when the lathe wows during the mastering. Again, until you find a copy that's good you think it's on the recording.

And yes, different mats do change the effect.

 

Speaking of different brands of turntables also brings up the fact that there are different models within these brands which are radically different.
Having personal experience with Russco turntables and having been friends with creator Russ Friend, I can tell you that all but the last new Russco model, the Mark V, are only suited for broadcast or other commercial uses where other factors cover up their shortcomings. They were all, basically, conventional idler driven platters. Except for the Mark V, none of the other models are suited for audiophile use.
Also, another turntable brand was manufactured in the same area as Russco, the QRK. That brand never progressed to the level of the Mark V and all it's turntables were clones of Russco. All the castings were done by Kearney Manufacturing for both brands.
Currently, it is in storage, but it is a great basic turntable for non-critical listening.

 

Of course a platter can slow down, for different reasons. But that has nothing to do with what´s on the record, which was the issue here. It doesn´t slow down depending on music content. It does because something is wrong.

 

The torque on a DD turntable is not applied continuously, but a constant "push and coast" cycle that varies according to the number of poles in the motor. Take the platter off a DD turntable and turn it on, the motor does some odd things, it doesn't just turn at the correct speed (some will, of course). And by the time the DD servo "catches" a temporary slowdown from groove drag, it's already long past.

Of course hearing it depends on your pitch acuity, and that varies from person to person.

 

With tracking forces of 1-2 grams, I find it hard to believe that a loud passage can cause a localized slowdown of platter speed. Back when tracking forces were 5g+ maybe, but not now.

As to the original post, a good vintage table can still sound quite good today- provided that said vintage table has been restored. Some feel that a Garrard 301/401 or Thorens TD 124 are still among the best tables you can buy in the current market. Heck most LP12 TT currently in service are 20+yrs old, and still sound great. A vintage AR or Thorens TD 150/160, suitably restored, costs less then $500 but sounds better than most $500 tables available today. Many are rediscovering the virtues of vintage DD tables, claiming they have a sense of drive and dynamics that are difficult to achieve with newer tables.