ADS ultrasonic RCM mechanical failures

Okay, this is only the latest in a long line of problems reported about the Audio Desk Systems Ultrasonic RCM. Please note that I have been an advocate for this machine in the past and when it is working properly there is no vinyl cleaning equal (IMO).

Anyone looking for information about high-end vinyl cleaning machines will be familiar with the ultrasonic cleaner from the German company Audio Desk Systemes and they will certainly have read the litany of reports about machine failures. It's pretty incredible, frankly. I bought mine about 28 months ago (and so it is now 4 months out of warranty, naturally). At the time, it was reported that all of the engineering issues from the initial release of the devices had been addressed and all was well. Not quite. In my case, the water pump quit; others have reported a variety of failures. So you might wonder what happens when the machine fails after the warranty has expired. I'll tell you.

First of all, for those who are, like me, mechanically inclined, the odds are almost insurmountable you will be able to service the machine yourself. My dealer wanted me to "let them handle it" so I figured okay. But when they looked the machine over I was told that there were "no visible screws" or other fasteners. (It was quite clear to me that the problem was a water pump failure but the unit HAD to be returned to the US distributor (I believe Ultrasystems. Ultra Systems Audio Desk Systeme ») who then confirmed my diagnosis and told my dealer that it would cost $300 to ship the unit to Germany and back, it would take two months, and that repairs would cost around $800. I spent hours on Google trying to track down parts. No go.

Okay, so, $1100 on a $4K machine and they manufacture the unit to make access problematic and cannot get parts to effect repairs myself anyway. So now, to get a functioning machine, will have to fork out another $1100, at a minimum.

Now the U.S. distributor has offered to ship me a new unit (same) and I can get it right away for $1400! (We're now up to $5400 total!) OR they will ship me a new PRO model for $1700! (do the math: $5700-$6200 total for the earlier, depending on purchase date, customers! Way to go!)

It should also be noted that when I went to make my initial purchase, the MSRP, which I thought was $4K, had been raised to $4450. Within months the MSRP was down to around $3800. That machine NOW can be had for around $3K while the "new and improved" Pro model is listing around $4200.

I immediately wrote to Michael Fremer (another one of the most outspoken supporters for the device) and he told me that he has received "way too many" complaints like mine and said he was going to try and get something done about the company's repair policies. I also forwarded my communications with both ADS and MF to John Atkinson (publisher of Stereophile) and urged him that unless something be done to alter ADS' existing policies that his publication cease taking advertising dollars from ADS.

Buyer beware, and those with the machine already, I suspect it is only a matter of time and you will be looking at an outsized repair bill unless the company quickly changes course with their policies. As it stands now that policy is totally outrageous. (As a comparison, I twice had to send a Cambridge Audio disc player to Montreal Canada for work and both times the cost was less than $100 to repair and I had the component back inside of two weeks.)

 

Very sorry to hear all of these problems. For me who has been looking (hoping) to buy an ADS system for several years now, this kinda steers me in the way toward an ultra sonic kit (DIY).....

Best of luck to you, will be following your progression on this thread!

 

Thank you for saving me 3-4K! I was really close to purchasing when the price dropped to 3K for the older model and I've seen them as low as $2500. I'll keep chugging along with my VPI and buy more records instead.

 

QUOTE="BrokenByAudio, post: 14385001, member: 22406"]Okay, this is only the latest in a long line of problems reported about the Audio Desk Systems Ultrasonic RCM. Please note that I have been an advocate for this machine in the past and when it is working properly there is no vinyl cleaning equal (IMO).....[/QUOTE]

Michael Fremer here:

I did chose not to review the Audio Desk when it first started becoming popular (for very good reasons, as I found out later) because of complaints I received from readers, all of whom extolled its virtues until it stopped working.

At some point a few years ago, the importer/distributor approached me for a review saying the issues had been solved. So I reviewed and bought the review sample. Once you try this cleaning method (cavitation), which this inventor, Mr. Glass, pioneered for use with vinyl records, no other cleaning method suffices.

I have either had incredibly good luck, or others have had very bad luck. And of course you always hear from the ones having problems while the others just keep on cleaning records and being amazed (that's me!).

Audio Desk has sold thousands of these machines. How many have failed? I don't have the numbers but I still bet they are small. That is hardly compensatory if you spent $4000 and it fails shortly after the warranty period.

The real issue here isn't reliability but what is done when a unit fails. Like every other manufacturer, Audio Desk buys parts from other manufacturers. It's like blaming Honda for defective Takata air bags. The difference is that Honda takes the hit and replaces the air bag...

Part of the problem here is that the machine is glued together to provide a tight, leakproof seal for the fluid chamber. Gasket type enclosures that can be screwed together present other, very serious risks, especially if the gasket fails and the tank empties onto your floor!

Here, the problem is having to pry it apart because then you probably destroy the thing in the process.

As for the changing prices, this is something importers struggle with all of the time. Some retail products well above what they could charge in order to insulate themselves from currency exchange shifts. Yes, they make more $$$ that way, but if the dollar declines they don't have to raise the price.

Importers who keep margins tight end up having to raise and lower prices often as the currency fluctuates. They are actually trying to do the buyer a solid but end up seeming like the bad guy because of the price fluctuations! The guys with the generous margins are making more money but are seen as the "good guy" because they are not changing prices up and down!!!!!

I am not speaking for the importer, (nor trying to get between the importer and "BrokenByAudio") but there usually are two sides to every story and I hope this one can have a happy ending for all. But warrantees usually have time limits and how far beyond the stated limit a manufacturer is willing to go, varies.

That said, I find some of the comments here unfortunate. Yes, the post will "save you money" if you don't buy the Audio Desk unit, but you will be missing out on an amazing cleaning machine that until you try, you will not know what you are missing.

There are other cavitation machines out there too (KLAUDIO and Ultrasonic V-8) with a combination of strengths and weaknesses that are worth investigating.

I've had good luck with the Audio Desk and prefer its combination of roll on brush application and surfactant/detergent. The Pro model is said to have upgraded parts and some other enhancements that were previously only on the KLAUDIO (which copies the Audio Desk's basic operating system).

I hate to see the originator of this take such a big hit on forums when those with problems get most of the attention. Of course were that me, I'd be here bitching too.

Let's see how this gets resolved, but you're not helping yourself really by not buying this machine because of these problems.

I'm thinking of surveying analogplanet readers to get an idea of their experiences with the Audio Desk. That will help figure out how big a problem there is with the machine...at least among the 100,000 or so unique visitors analogplanet has monthly......

 

So far, I have not had any problems with my machine, although I have cleaned only about 100 records with it. I am pretty lazy so I have not bothered to use any sort of combination of cleaning with my Nitty Gritty machine and the Audio Desk. The Audio Desk is so easy to use; I can put a record in the machine and leave it completely unattended until it is done with the record. Because my collection is pretty well maintained, I did not, at first, really notice anything concrete about how good a job it was doing compared to other methods of cleaning. However, I have a $1 used record find that I really like (Ariel Ramirez' "Missa Criolla" performed by Los Fronterizos on Argentinian Philips), except for what I figured was some groove damage that caused some mild mis-tracking on hard transients. After cleaning the record on the Audio Desk, the "damage" was largely ameliorated. I am very pleased with that result.

 

Just for the record me and two other friends all bought the machine about 4 years ago. Each of us has had a problem, one out of warranty. All were handled quickly and even the out of warranty one did not have to pay any costs. There is simply nothing else that cleans records so well.

 

Everyone knows someone who has not had a problem. What about all the people who have had issues with the machine? How about those, like me, who are looking at an $1100 repair bill? AFTER ponying up $4K or more?

I'ver already said the machine is the best WHEN IT IS WORKING. The problem is when the warranty is up and they have you over a barrel.

 

Seriously, Mike? After what you wrote to me earlier today? What about your thoughts : "Given the number of failures I think their repair policy is in need of its own overhaul." (Because that is what you wrote to me, verbatim.) Can you honestly say that people are "not helping yourself by NOT [sic] buying this machine because of these problems?"

 

Damn and to think I nearly sold my hardly used Loricraft machine. I was tempted by ultrasonic but this thread makes me glad I didn't take the plunge.

Any comparisons from ultrasonic vs a Loricraft/monk type machine used with enzyme fluids?

 

To repeat, I still believe that the ADS ultrasonic machine is THE BEST MACHINE OUT THERE for cleaning LPs but I say that with the huge caveat--the WARNING--that unless the company (and/or its American distributor) does something about their obscene post-warranty repair policies (in terms of pricing, shipping, and time management, never mind making the machine virtually inaccessible for anyone but themselves to get into) that people risk looking at far greater capital outlays (I.e., a lot more MONEY!) over their lifetime use of the device than they had bargained for.

From where I sit, one of the things which makes the machine so effective is the variety of moving parts--pumps, rollers, fans, etc. Each of these requires electronic relays, switching mechanisms, etc. Unfortunately that is also what makes the machine prone to breakdown far more often than components with largely static parts (say, an amplifier, power units, cables, even speakers, etc.) It is pretty clear to me in my online research that there are so many references to problems with this machine that we can assume that the model I own needed a substantial upgrade. To the company's credit--to ADS's credit--they DID undertake a redesign and I trust they addressed the most consistent problems that they were being confronted with. AND, they are offering that machine at an MSRP that is around the price that my machine was offered to me. The new Pro machine has been reviewed well and let us hope that the most consistent problem issues have been ironed out. But to be sure, the Pro machine has not yet been out in the marketplace and in user's hands long enough to verify its ongoing reliability.

But there is still the ongoing issue: The early adopters who paid somewhere around $4K (mine was $3860 after sales tax) whose machines are out of warranty, or will be so before long, are looking uphill at this repair policy which is brutally exploitive because they have NO OTHER REPAIR OPTIONS. And IF the the consumer chooses to upgrade they are looking at a total investment approaching $6K and a warranty period that still lapses after 24 months.

Now, Mike Fremer rightly points out that many parts in any component are made by other manufacturers but he further argues that perhaps ADS not be held accountable for the failure of those parts. I disagree. ADS should be going after that parts supplier and demand that the parts be made more reliable, OR ADS should be buying more reliable parts from another supplier. IF the parts fail, it is up to ADS to address the problem with the parts supplier and get the problem fixed. What they ought NOT be doing is screwing their customer with massive repair bills, long wait times and excessive and exploitive trade-up policies. IT IS VERY, VERY BAD BUSINESS.

Here's some ideas for what I would call a good business response for ADS and Ultrasystems (American distributor):

1) Set up a fully capable repair facility with the American distributor and have trained technicians and a stock of parts on hand adequate to getting malfunctioning products in and out the door within a few days. This would eliminate, at the least, the large shipping bill required for overseas (to Germany) shipment--quoted to my dealer by the American distributor to be $300 round trip. It would also reduce the turnaround time quoted to my dealer of two months, or sixty days.

2) Institute minimal cost repair policies. I am not suggesting they lose money on a repair, but that is not where they should gouging the customer for big profits (see "VERY BAD BUSINESS" above). That sort of approach can be parlayed into a solid selling tool as a VALUE-ADDED SERVICE. And good audio dealer knows all about this and personally, I think it is probably what keeps most of them in business these days.

3) Offer to take the cost of repairs 100% off from an upgrade to a newer model machine (in this case, the Pro). As it stands now there is an ugly feeling that the American distributor and/or ADS is attempting to push people up to the Pro model in order to alleviate the ongoing issues relating to mechanical breakdown in the older model. (How else does one explain the exorbitant repair quotes and the ridiculous waiting time? The waiting time issue alone is proof that there is a backlog of warranty and repair work and undercuts any of the assertions we have seen here about "I know three people with ADS RCMs that they have not had any problems with"...and so on).

4) both manufacturer and distributor ought to reduce the upgrade-to-Pro cost. Why? because of the inequities as outlined in my original post on this thread and reiterated in my third paragraph above. To take the highest cost MSRP (which some may have paid I am guessing) of $4450. Add to that the presently offered upgrade charge of $1700 and you are looking at a total outlay of $6150 and now have in one's possession a machine they are presently listing for $4199. THAT is what I call sticking it to your earliest customers ("Thank You very much for your business!" Nice way to show it, right?)

5) Taking into account both #3 and #4 above, consider embracing some variation on the business practice long utilized by the power tool industry. In that industry, tools returned for warranty service are often replaced with a new tool and the tool taken in is then refurbished and sold at a lower price point as "factory reconditioned". Depending on the severity of the problems, it may make more sense all around to do this and greater market penetration can be achieved. I suspect a great many vinyl folks would like to have a fully functioning ADS RCM and this is one way to accomplish that. At the same time you would be developing brand loyalty and keeping competitor's machines (ultrasonic or not) at bay.

I do hope that the two business involved will take some of these suggestions to heart. The American distributor has reached out to me but we have not yet achieved resolution to my situation. I would like to see them thrive, but I equally do not want people to be hurt or otherwise taken advantage of.

 

It appears that my particular issue has been straightened out with Ultrasystems (American distributor). I heard back this morning from Robert Stein. He apparently had misread the serial number entry in their records and that resulted in a denial of warranty. He asked me for my receipt (which confirmed my 28 months of ownership claim) and they agreed to extend the warranty (repair for free) OR, in light of the expensive repair, to substantially reduce the amount I would pay for an upgrade to the Pro. I chose the latter.

Their policies are going to be reviewed insofar as costs of repair. I do commend Ultrasystems (the US distributor) for bending over backwards to get this incident behind us. It is unfortunate that the mistake was made on their end which precipitated all of this. Robert Stein has maintained a businesslike approach in the last 24 hours or so. That is consistent with what I have read from myriad comments across the audiophile web forum as people have had to deal with mechanical issues. They have said he is a decent fellow and wants to do right by the customer. I can see that now.

I think it is a huge plus that the original machine has been upgraded as clearly there were weak spots in the engineering. I feel a lot more positively NOW that I will not be far less at risk for breakdowns further down the road. And again, there is no question the ADS RCM is the best machine out there for cleaning your vinyl! (Bar none!) The technology (ultrasonic cavitation) is clearly the most thorough way to get crud out of the grooves and the roller brushing action in combination with the detergent additive is clearly the best way to deal with oily residue from the release agents from the LP pressing process. I was thrilled with mine until it stopped working!

I hope the folks who had responded to my original posting will consider that has transpired and re-commit their intentions to purchasing the ADS RCM--the PRO machine is, in my view, their safest option.

(less)brokenbyaudio

 

Robert Stein--the American distributor for Audiodesk Systems has responded, since, correcting me that they are not reviewing their policies regarding repair of the ADS RCM and has asked me not to suggest the same, so my apologies to readers. Here is their policy, as he stated to me:

"All in-warranty service is done here in PA on a repair or replace basis. As you now know we don't hold rigidly to 2 years, we do offer some reasonable wiggle room in support of our customers.

For out of warranty service we offer easy repairs/adjustments for free. For more serious repairs, these are available on an la carte basis, but depending on age of machine and the nature of the problem they may need to be done in German[y]. Importantly for out of warranty machines we also offer the retip/exchange options (similar to what people are used to with their moving coil cartridges): $1495 for a new 2015 machine or + 20% (therefore $1795) for a PRO machine in replacement."

 

Great to hear! Robert is a stand up guy (as you can now tell) and being an Audio Desk dealer, I have nothing but positive things to say about him and his support of their Audio Desk products.

 

my ADS went back twice to germany for repair & now own a loricraft PRC6 & Love it

 

The ADS machine sells for less than $2k in Europe at current exchange rates, minus VAT. IMHO, the US distributor has seriously overpriced it.

 

I think it should be taken as a plus that ADS is striving to improve on its engineering and that the new Pro machine is being offered today at what was functionally the same price point as the previous model 2.5 years ago. My big complaint (not to beat a dying horse) is that early adopters were/are getting hit with excessive and exploitive upgrade and/or repair costs.

But they made good with me AFAIC and I trust the engineering upgrades will extend the functioning life of the machine before repairs of any sort, major or minor, are needed again.

 

It's nice that Mike Fremer replied. Robert Stein has been a pretty able distributor for the product and it was my impression that he was helping customers who experienced problems. I had one for a while, currently have a KL, my next step will be a custom built (I hate to say DIY because that implies that I'll actually be doing something other than writing checks). They are great cleaning machines. I still prefer not using any fluid in the ultrasonic, pre-cleaning and rinsing beforehand, and vac drying on my Monks after an ultrasonic wash but that routine isn't exactly convenient or in some cases necessary. If you are of a mind to go full DIY, you can probably do it pretty cost-effectively. I love the synergistic combination of the vacuum and the ultrasonic. Product issues are always a plague to the customer and the business- getting them resolved quickly and cost-effectively (whether or not in warranty) is key to retaining goodwill. (I make myself miserable if something doesn't work right, and I know that really leaves a bad taste). Sorry to hear about your experience.

 

Bill, I make myself miserable and I can also make others miserable. It's a double-edged sword with both advantages and disadvantages. But it is, as they say, what it is.

Thanks for the reading and the sympathy.

 

Empathy. Sympathy is like I feel sorry for you. Empathy is like I feel your pain.

 

Very sorry to read about your woes with the Audiodesk. I am actually going to buy an ADS Pro Model in the coming weeks having spoken to Audiodesk at the recent Munich High End Show in Germany. Michael Bass of ADS explained to me that many parts have been upgraded on the Pro Model particularly the pump which seems to have caused grief to owners of some units. I have a Klaudio machine which broke down at the end of January of this year. It had to be shipped back to the factory (Koolance) in South Korea for 'service and upgrade'. The importer and his technical service could do nothing with the machine just like your situation with the ADS. Luckily, my unit was/is under warranty so I only had to pay the shipping to the importer. I would hate to think what it could have cost me if the warranty had expired. I got it back about 10 days ago and it is working fine again now. My confidence in these machines has been shaken, though, I would have to admit. They are relatively new and need more time to prove themselves over time, I think? The Klaudio does a magnificent job with vinyl and I am sure the ADS is just as good or maybe better if some reports are to be believed. If only the reliability factor could be nailed, then the purchase of either unit (ADS or Klaudio) would simply be a no-brainer. I strongly agree however with Bill Hart when he mentions the 'synergy' between vacuum type RCMs and Ultra Sonic machines. Frankly, I would not be without my VPI-HW17F in spite of [shortly] owning the ADS Pro and Klaudio. They work very well together.

I am very happy for you that the U.S. importer has addressed your situation. It is pretty upsetting to have spent $4k on an ADS and to find that you have to spend over $1k to get it repaired. Happy cleaning [and listening]!

 

Same thing happened to me. Water pump stopped working.
My local dealer told me to call the Aussie distributor, in Sydney, and see what they say. I haven't had the guts to call yet as i know it's gonna cost me a bomb to fix this. And to rub it in, the KL Audio machine sells for RRP AUD$6900.

 

Exactly the same experience!

1. Owner for about 3 years - very happy with product
   
2. Pump problems when out of warranty
   
3. Deal with local (Sydney) supplier, send back to manufacturer in Germany
4. Audiodesksysteme do not repair: have a policy of replace and recondition
5. I'm stuck with the dilemma of
   1. Pay additional $1,600 on top of an already expensive product with shaken confidence
   2. Don't accept repairs, left with a broken product, and wasted $3,500

My issue isn't about making a choice - I'll have to decide for myself - its about the lack of a proper 'repair' policy from Audiodesksysteme. I find a $1,600 repair bill to be very extreme.

Does anyone know of an Update from Michael Fremer? He mentions surveying Audioplanet readers. I was wondering the outcome of that.

 

mine went back to germany twice for repair & then broke a 3rd time
just cut my losses & bought a Loricraft & these can survive a bomb strike
fantastic RCM & totally silent

 

I find it remarkable that they have not come up with repair and/or replace policies that make greater business sense (per my comment #10 above). I suppose it is possible that they had not sold all that many machines previous to the re-engineering resulting in the Pro model and so just decided to "weather the storm" (so to speak) but for sure they are not doing themselves any favors in terms of public relations.

In this day and age of internet (information) ubiquity it's simply too likely that prospective buyers will do basic research and read about both engineering issues and bad repair policy on the original machines and decide that they don't want to do business with a company like that. Personally I think they are shooting themselves in the foot.

All that said, I will add that since I received my new Pro machine it has been operating perfectly.

 

A couple of things I've learned in the process of evaluating the feasibility of a "custom" machine (for me, not as a product for resale):
first, these things have parts that do fail or need to be replaced over time. Pumps, transducers, etc. Not so crazy when you have a factory sized system- you'll have it periodically checked, maintained, and presumably, serviced in the field (or the operative modules replaced) . But, with a small consumer unit, of the type we are talking about here, the parts and repair cost are probably a higher percentage of the overall cost of the equipment (at least compared to these "factory line" sized cleaning systems that can take up an entire floor). And, as I understand it, the Audio Desk isn't really designed to be opened up and repaired quickly "in the field"--for example, how do you even open up the case and reseal it? (I had the impression parts of it were sealed using an adhesive). Plus, to the extent there is an operation of rollers being actuated for enhanced cleaning, then withdrawn, there is an additional layer of mechanical complexity. (Since I was pre-cleaning anyway using a vacuum RCM, I decided that I didn't need that in the ultrasonic).
second, I'm advised that a surfactant does enhance cavitation, for the simple reason that it breaks water surface tension, making the ultrasonic action far more effective overall. Which brings us back full circle: another reason I liked the KL is that it didn't require the use of fluid, but apparently, one can get better cleaning doing so (not necessarily in the KL, who seem to advise against it in their machine- I don't know if it will void warranty if you add something). So the Audio Desk scores points for using a surfactant. Yet, in my estimation, you still want to get that fluid off before final drying.
One of the things I need to explore is whether industrial/medical units like the Elma, from Germany, have field replaceable parts- they make the bigger factory line type systems as well as small units that are suited for record cleaning. And they seem to permit the use of fluids to enhance cavitation. I would still rinse and dry using a point nozzle vacuum RCM.
Call this an investigation in progress.....