The Rolling Stones Hot Rocks track listing revisited

Right, I see. You mean Hot Rocks part 2.

Was Klein/London somehow connected, with Decca not part of that? The post-1970 Decca compilations don't seem to have any Klein/ABKCO connection AFAIK, while the London Records US Hot Rocks collections obviously do. So maybe that has something to do with London being able to release BS & WH, while Decca couldn't?

 

Yes, although the releases are in fact titled "Hot Rocks 1" and "Hot Rocks 2".

There was Metamorphosis...

But I'm not sure exactly how/why Decca was able to be somewhat autonomous with those early comps. Or even the original CDs, for that matter.

 

Klein was not responible for all the Decca compilations released in europe in the seventies.
Europe and America were 2 different matters.
As for ABKCO, they actually were pretty 'sober' with their releases after 1971:

Hot Rocks
More Hot Rocks
Metamorphosis

-That's it, actually. Otherwise, they only re-released records that was already available.

However, in 1984 ABKCO gained the rights to all releases worldwide, which is why all those British / German 1970's / 80's compilations suddenly stopped appearing on the market.

It was first in 1989, that Klein and The Stones solved their differences and made a deal which later envolved into the joint-release Forty Licks.

Since 1989, all ABKCO releases has been given green light by The Stones themselves.

 

I think the situation outside of North America is a bit more murky than that. Decca did release Metamorphosis. On the other hand, while the original "London" CDs have ABKCO logos on them, the mastering (and sometimes art/track listing) is different from the US ABKCO CDs, and it wouldn't be until the mid '90s that they were eliminated.

 

I've just been reading about the Stones/Klein/Decca situation (in 'The Mammoth Book Of The Rolling Stones' - not a bad book, there are also others in the series). A press release detailing the end of Klein's involvement with the Stones only came on May 10, 1972 (about 2 weeks before 'Exile' was released). It also says that part of the deal reached was that Klein ended up with all of the band's recordings made in the 60's, which might explain how he ended up with rights to 'Brown Sugar' and 'Wild Horses', both recorded in 1969 (as I said earlier, especially since they were featured in the 'Gimme Shelter' film).

But did Klein have anything to do with Decca's post-1970 Stones output? I think not - maybe Decca were just as keen to see the back of Klein as the band were. But what about London Records in the US? Here's what the book says about 'Hot Rocks':

"A somewhat more worthy compilation appeared - in the US only - on 11 January 1972 in the form of 'Hot Rocks 1964-71'.... Allen Klein won an injunction temporarily preventing London Records from releasing it on the grounds that it compromised a set he was planning of the same title and nature, but in the end it was issued via that label. It was a fine collection of music and right up to date, courtesy of Klein laying shared claim to 'Brown Sugar' and 'Wild Horses'."

I don't know how accurate that is, but it kind of muddies the waters. But my feeling is that Klein could somehow 'give' those two SF tracks to London, but not Decca.

There can be little doubt that Decca would have liked to issue those tracks if it were possible, surely?

 

I was about to say that doesn't make much sense, but I just stumbled upon this, a South African pressing of Hot Rocks:

https://www.discogs.com/Rolling-Stones-Hot-Rocks-1964-1971/release/2751988

What's particularly interesting is that the track lineup is identical to the US release (what about the mixes?!), *except* side 4:

 

Nice find! That strengthens the argument that BS & WH were beyond the reach of Decca...

 

Yeah, the question then is if it was because Klein wouldn't let them have them, or if something beyond Klein/Decca's control. And what changed by 1985.

 

Yeah, it's murky and probably complicated. But the Stones didn't leave 'Klein & Decca' (as is often perceived) - they left both independently around the same time. Decca's 'revenge' albums seem to be entirely their own doing, nothing to do with Klein. And Klein had his own agenda too. Where London fit into this, I'm not sure.

BTW, that South African pressing seems to include the single edit of 'You Can't Always Get...', if the timing is correct.

 

My *guess* is it was something like The Who and Decca, where they were able to get out of their contract worldwide, except in North America. The opposite being the case with the Stones, where the London label continued to be used but the releases were essentially ABKCO releases. I find it interesting that Decca ever had that much control in the first place, though, regardless of ABKCO.

 

Also surprising that Klein didn't release any US 'revenge' albums. The 'Hot Rocks' albums were much better and much less exploitative than the Decca compilations.

 

There's a potted history of Klein v Stones on Wikipedia (take it as you like) Allen Klein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A couple of things though:

...Oldham sought and received Jagger's blessing to bring Klein aboard for re-negotiation of the group's contract with Decca Records. The label offered the band the opportunity to make $300,000 if their records continued to sell. Klein countered with, and quickly secured, an arrangement paying the Stones twice as much, in the form of an advance. He also forced London Records, Decca's American subsidiary, to sign a separate contract. It too was for $600,000. By the time Klein subsequently re-negotiated the deal one year later, Easton having been removed as co-manager, the Stones were guaranteed $2.6 million...

In 1970, on the occasion of needing to negotiate a new contract with Decca, Jagger announced that Klein would be replaced as manager by Prince Loewenstein.

The split between Klein and the Stones led to years of litigation. In 1971 the Stones sued Klein over U.S. publishing rights. The suit was settled the following year, with the Stones receiving $1.2 million as a settlement of all American royalties earned up to that point (and was essentially the $1.25M advance that Decca had paid the Stones in 1965 that Klein had been withholding since August 1965). However, the Stones were unable to break their contract with Klein, who held an additional $2 million of the Stones' money to be paid over a 15-year period, ostensibly for tax purposes. Klein's company, ABKCO, continued to control the rights to publish the Stones' music and it was Klein who made a fortune off the Stones all-time best-selling album, Hot Rocks 1964-1971.In 1972 Klein alleged that some of the songs on their album Exile On Main Street had been composed while the Stones were still under contract with ABKCO. As a result, ABKCO acquired ownership of the disputed songs and was able to publish another Rolling Stones album, More Hot Rocks (Big Hits and Fazed Cookies).

 

Look at those track times! "Midnight Rambler"- 3:23?! What's the point?

 

Yet Tell Me is the long version (albeit with fade).

 

I was thinking - didn't the initial pressings have the alternate mixes of Brown Sugar and Wild Horses? I think they are similar to the rough mixes heard in Gimme Shelter (I can't really remember though). Could it be that Klein just used tapes that were already in his possession, and just pushed his luck (maybe the Stones then conceded to an agreement)? Or that at least there was some confusion about the masters of these non-Decca era tracks.

I'm only speculating, but is it a complete coincidence that initial pressings didn't use the 'correct' masters of the two Sticky Fingers tracks?

 

Could be, although it's not clear how he would have had them in his possession.

 

Copyright purposes perhaps? Or from the film connection? Funny how the same/similar (?) obviously rough mixes from the film were used initially...

 

By the time LIB appeared he was fully integrated. Appeared on what was their main single hit of 1969 (Honky Tonk Women), did some major touring with them. By the time Beggars Banquet appeared Brian's departure was a matter of time. That was at the end of 1968, so in my point of view 1969 can be filed under the Taylor-era. Nothing against the majorly talented Jones, but it's just the way things went. The LIB-situation is comparable to Black 'N Blue, which I also think is a Wood-era album. Both album covers bear it out as well.
And just to prove that Taylor was a major contributor early on you only need to hear his splendid performances on both Jiving Sister Fanny and I Don't Know Why, both recorded mid-1969.

 

My point is Taylor did not appear on all of the tracks on an album until Sticky Fingers so he was not totally integrated in the studio until that time. Many of the Let It Bleed tracks were already recorded before he was asked to join the sessions. Two tracks is not the majority of the album. My understanding was that Taylor was not made a full member until it was determined whether or not he would work out on the 1969 tour.

 

I have a hard time understanding your logic. He's right there on the album cover and poster of LIB. He was being called in for session work and was promptly relegated to permanent bandmember the day after by Jagger and Richards! If there was an integration of any kind it lasted all of one day.

Do you feel he firmly belongs in the Rolling Stones Records-era (70's)? In that case it wouldn't make much sense either, because their contract with Decca ran through to December 1970, 1,5 years after Brian departed.

 

My logic is that Brown Sugar and Wild Horses were not released until 1971 so why include them on a compilation of earlier material no matter when they were recorded. Yes Taylor was in the band in 1969 but he did not record at the majority of the sessions for Let It Bleed. Why put tracks released in the seventies on a compilation of sixties material?

 

Who is calling it "a compilation of sixties material" other than you? I mean, "1971" is actually in the title. It's a compilation of material from 1964 to 1971.

You're applying constraints that don't actually exist then complaining when it doesn't fit them.

 

I think I get what his point is: 60's=Brian=Decca, 70's=Taylor/Woods=RSR and because no studio album got released in 1970 (or, seemingly held back on purpose) it's easy to draw certain lines. I don't know, but to each his/her own, ofcourse.

 

Yes and they called it 1971 just to include those 2 tracks. They didn't have to do that. Rolled Gold and Through The Past Darkly did not.

 

It's easy to draw lines, but those lines may not be of signicance or may be blurry.

It's worth noting that while breaking free of Klein and Decca may have been a big deal, the actual recording process didn't change. Jimmy Miller producing, Glyn Johns engineering, independent studios, etc. Yes, Andy Johns started to take over for Glyn, and they started using the mobile, but everything was basically the same.

But they did. And it became their best selling album. End of story. Rolled Gold and Big Hits 2 aren't Hot Rocks.