Harbeth P3ESR - Underwhelmed

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by BIGGER Dave, May 27, 2016.

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  1. BIGGER Dave

    BIGGER Dave Forum Resident Thread Starter

    A few days ago I purchased a pair of Harbeth P3ESR along with the matching Skylan stands. Took them home, hooked them up and was... underwhelmed. After reading several glowing reviews, I expected audio nirvana. What I heard was the inability to play loud, limited bass and an overall "small" sound.

    I listened to Linda Rondstadt, Carly Simon, Rolling Stones, Steely Dan, Crosby Stills & Nash, Joni Mitchell, Heart and of course The Beatles. These speakers excel in vocals, but they're seriously lacking in the lowest octave. Perhaps adding a subwoofer is what's needed...

    I was expecting to move my JBL 4425 speakers (12" with a horn) to the secondary room, however I'm leaning towards leaving the JBL's in the main room and use the Harbeths for the secondary room. Anyone have similiar feelings towards their Harbeth P3ESR?

    (My setup is; VPI Scout 1.1, Ortofon 2M Blue, Lounge LCR Phono Pre, McIntosh C712 Pre, Crown PS400, Harbeth P3ESR)
     
  2. jon9091

    jon9091 Master Of Reality

    Location:
    Midwest
    You're trying to use the P3ESR to replace your JBL 4425 w/12" woofers? In a room that's 15' wide, 35' long, 8' ceiling? I'd think you'd need to be looking at the Harbeth HL 5's to compare apples to apples with your JBLs.
     
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  3. resonated

    resonated Forum Resident

    A $10,000+ rig with a 2M Blue cart? I think a cart upgrade is long past due.
     
  4. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    The Harbeth is basically an LS-3/5a and they're limited - personally I find the speaker overrated and overpriced against a lot of other speakers. I'd take my AX Two at half the price over any LS-3/5a or variant on all kinds of music all the time. But it doesn't have the nice finish and it's always sold out so no one can ever seem to get any of them. But it still would probably stink in a big room.

    You can't put small speakers in big rooms and expect to play anything particularly well. These were originally small studio speakers for the UK market - where a small room means something different compared to an American small room - more like the closet.

    I never quite understand the fascination of small woofer speakers in Western sized homes - probably letting the wife make all the choices. The classic Big good JBLs I would take over any Harbeth any day of the bloody week if you listen to big scale music - amplified harder hitting stuff. They will be more alive sounding. They may not be a refined sounding by meh -

    I'd double down on JBL than puny ass dynamically inept bass inept gutless wonders like the P3ESR - spend your money on something that actually creates air movement gradients in the air (that can actually pressurize instruments) by striving for something like these

     
    bhazen likes this.
  5. Clay B

    Clay B Forum Resident

    Dave

    They will not sound as big as your JBL's. That is not their design brief. So ultimately they may not be a good match for your room size. However, they are an excellent small speaker. I would suggest you play music through them for a couple of weeks or so. Be patient and play with the usual parameters of distance from the back wall, distance apart, and angle to listening seat. As they break in, my guess is that they will grow on you. At that point you can decide what system to put them in or if they float your boat at all. Good luck.
     
    Manimal likes this.
  6. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    I think they make all these different speakers because so many of us have varying interests and varying hearing and, more important, a wide variety of feelings about what sounds best and what music they like best. I listen to a lot of jazz (bop, post-bop, fusion, new jazz, etc.) and classical piano, classical violin, classical cello and so on. The Harbeth P3ESR speakers currently being driven by my vintage Yamaha CA-810 integrated amp, and fed by my Yamaha CT-810 FM tuner and vintage Sony PS2251 direct drive turntable sound astonishingly good - revelatory sometimes - at SPLs in my barely medium size room anywhere up to 70 dB average or so.

    I'm not sure why there are any expectations from the P3ESR for impressive bass impact in the lower two octaves and at SPLs beyond 75dB or so in even in just a small room (although I admit to only making assumptions about your actual listening levels and room size). I think there may be too many people who are so impressed with the P3ESR that they hype the speakers beyond reason. The specs don't offer such expectations, the professional reviewers don't offer those expectations and (despite some of the hypers) the majority of user reviews on this board and many other don't offer them. The original LS3/5A design never offered it. The midrange is wonderful, the higher frequencies are wonderful, the mid-bass is clear and detailed, and the low bass slopes off rapidly below 60 or 70 Hz.

    There is all sorts of low bass to satisfy me personally - double bass, that is - and the recordings on LPs by everyone from Joe Pass to the latest work by Avishai Cohen sound richly detailed and full of impact. Chest walloping it is not, emotionally engaging it is, but if you expected room resonating wallop then I think you might had unusually high hopes for such a small mid-bass driver. The P3ESR is a superb speaker, but it is not magic. Its design heritage catered to close-field (by no means necessarily near-field) listening positions but evolved by Harbeth, Spendor and Audio Space in the last couple of decades to perform brilliantly at greater listening distances. As others have pointed out in many other threads, if you want powerhouse bass you have to favor the speakers with big drivers that emphasize such things and your JBLs are a very good example. It's that or position the Harbeths a lot closer to your listening chair. But that's something that for a lot of people looking for physical impact from bass tracks in addition to a big sound stage just doesn't make sense for a lot of good reasons. Even if someone does decide to work with the Harbeths to position them for near-field or close-field listening, the much lower amplitude lower octave may still not be satisfying because that's just not where the speaker does its best work.
     
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  7. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I think the issue agitator is that when you've had bass - it's really difficult to live WITHOUT bass. Bass is the foundation of music. I have big horn Wharfedales and so for over a decade I had bass to below 40hz and capable of huge scale and volume to 120dB. The LS-3/5a variants have none of that nor are they the last word in cohesiveness of sound going from midrange driver to tweeter. Some variants are better than others but there are cheaper speakers that better in the midrange, have better cohesiveness, have much better bass response and better treble (AX Two is one example - the KEF LS-50 in some areas as well - The Totem Model One and Reference 3a Dulcet are others).

    I agree with you that people need to research things better. And try to really know what they expect from a speaker. If you really want to listen to anything amplified - say you like Lady Gaga's Bad Romance, or the odd AC/DC song - even if this is 2% of your music collection listening to a full bodied speaker will remind you very quickly as to what the little speakers are lacking (at any volume) but certainly at pulse racing volumes. And remember if the speaker lacks on Lady Gaga and AC/DC it is also lacking on Beethoven's 9th, Donald Byrd, and every other type of music.

    I feel bad for the OP because I don't know who was telling him that the Harbeth would work in a big room or how he was expecting big bass - I have been on plenty of forums where speakers like the Magnepan MMG $600 was recommended to posters who wanted a speaker for heavy metal and hard rock. The MMG is a laughable absurd joke playing that kind of music. As is the P3ESR and any LS-3/5a. Although the MMG is even worse IME. In fact all panels kind of stink at it - even the big ones cost more than a Honda Civic.

    I prefer a speaker that doesn't dictate the music I can play. It should play everything at pretty high levels. Looking at his JBLS - he should be looking at speakers with a minimun of an 8 inch woofer - something that moves air.

    You should not take steps back - if a speaker has bass and dynamics the next speaker should have bass and dynamics but offer improvements on top. Not get rid of bass and dynamics for treble smoothness or better staging. Fortunately, there are enough people who like the P3ESR that he should get rid of them without losing too much money.
     
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  8. molinari

    molinari Forum Resident

    Location:
    new york city
    I don’t think the P3’s are overpriced or over-rated - but they’re not for everyone... In the sized room that they were designed to be placed in - they have surprisingly good bass - but they don’t go as low as some other monitors. It’s true, if you’re used to a system with lo-end, it’s hard to live without...
     
    Gordon Johnson and Art K like this.
  9. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    for sure, P3esr low bass is underwhelming. what is there however is very good and tuneful.

    Your jbl's are also pretty good and for that room, the p3esr will sound very small and very bass light in comparison, almost pathetic compared to big jbl. the p3esr is actually the most bass light speaker ive ever had. I however have been able to get over it, without sub, and appreciate the music just as much.

    I think that if they are new, you should break them in before making any judgments. give them 150 hours running full time wehn your not home at 80db. the bass should increase ime.
     
    resonated likes this.
  10. hesson11

    hesson11 Forum Resident

    Try some Schubert, Mozart, Schumann, Beethoven, Dvorak or Ravel chamber music. :)

    I'm half kidding, but I really believe that some speakers are better for some music than others. The design goals may not be to excel on certain types of music, but I believe that's how it sometimes turns out. I love my Harbeth Compact 7s for classical music, but I'm not sure I'd have picked them if I listened to the music you do. I know others will disagree, and that's okay!
    -Bob
     
    signothetimes53 likes this.
  11. Destroysall

    Destroysall Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix
    I think one of the issues is you got a small speaker for a relatively large room.
     
  12. Art K

    Art K Retired but not tired!

    Location:
    Corvallis, Oregon
    I love the P3's. The only thing is that they always sound a bit small. After all they are a bit small. If a small monitor is desired I would try the ATC SCM11 v2....I'm listening to a pair right now, and in the same spot I used to have Harbeth P3's, Dynaudio X12's, KEF LS50's and more..the ATC's are better to my ears than any of them. The speakers in my main setup remain Harbeth Compact 7's.
     
  13. bhazen

    bhazen ANNOYING BEATLES FAN

    Location:
    Deepest suburbia
    Are these new?

    P3ESR's require a TON of break-in time. And mine actually sounded worse a week or two into the process. I'd give 'em 200 hours - minimum - before making a judgement. And I'd be doing so in a room appropriate to what tiny speakers can accommodate without collapsing.
     
    triple likes this.
  14. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    The clock has struck twice in the same day - I agree with Art - I would choose the ATC SCM 11V2 over all the speakers he listed as well. And the previous model wasn't exactly a slouch either - I'd probably take that one as well!
     
    mike catucci, Destroysall and Art K like this.
  15. Art K

    Art K Retired but not tired!

    Location:
    Corvallis, Oregon
    Damn, Richard...how did this happen!...lol!
     
    Destroysall likes this.
  16. Seafinch

    Seafinch Preferred Patron

    Location:
    United States
    Hey Art - a little off topic, but a quick question - do you find the upper lows dip significantly on the SCM11's when powered by the Brio? I'm running a pair of SCM11 V2's with a Rogue Sphinx and I feel like I'm missing the frequency where the bass guitar lives and am wondering if I need more power. Wondering if you notice anything similar...

    Everything else about them is amazing.
     
  17. Art K

    Art K Retired but not tired!

    Location:
    Corvallis, Oregon
    I can clearly hear that more power would be good. Truth is more power, or better power, would be great with both my C7's and my ATC's. I am actually running the ATC's with a Creek 4330 mk2...a nostalgic piece I recently bought from Echo Audio in Portland. I will probably put the Brio on the SCM11's later in the weekend.

    Oh as far as upper lows...no, I am getting pretty good upper lows but certainly a higher quality power supply would bring it all up a couple of notches.
     
  18. Seafinch

    Seafinch Preferred Patron

    Location:
    United States
    Cool. Good to know...
     
  19. Bubbamike

    Bubbamike Forum Resident

    What no one has mentioned is that the Harbeth's strong suite is tonal accuracy, something that can't be said for the JBL or other thumpers. It won't give you the bass that those other, bigger speakers will but it will make a piano sound like a piano and a sax like a sax, a cello like a cello. Yeah, it won't thump, and the small ones won't fill a big room, but they will make Linda Ronstadt's voice sound like Linda and no one else.
     
  20. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Didn't the dealer explain any of this to you when you bought them? Did you tell the dealer what they were replacing and the size of the room they were going in? Your really comparing apples with oranges here.
     
  21. BIGGER Dave

    BIGGER Dave Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions. I think I read too much Internet exaggeration and hyperbole regarding the small Harbeth's abilities and actually started to believe it! I decided to keep the JBL's in the large main room, and move the Harbeths to my bedroom which is a smaller 15' x 20'. My expectations for bedroom listening is different than the expectations I have in my main room. The Harbeths will be used mostly for low volume ambient listening. I'll give the Harbeths a try in the bedroom for a week or two and see if they grow on me. More to follow...
     
    Brother_Rael likes this.
  22. Barnabas Collins

    Barnabas Collins Senior Member

    Location:
    NH
    Dave, I don't know which direction you are in relative to Boston, but Harbeth's US distributor is in Nashua, NH, about a 45 minute drive from Boston. I haven't been to Fidelis yet myself as I plan on auditioning the 40.2 someday but maybe head up there to hear a few other models to see if they float your boat. My listening room is somewhat smaller than yours and I don't think I would be satisfied with bass that quits out at 75Hz either. My current speakers only go down to 50Hz and I already feel like I'm missing some of the music. It's too bad you have to lower your expectations on a new purchase, even if you're considering your speakers for a bedroom system.
     
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  23. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    :doh:
     
  24. RhodesSupremacy

    RhodesSupremacy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Away, India
    I own and love magnepans but I have to agree. I dig drone and stoner, and the maggies just don't cut it for that kind of music, no matter how nice they sound with other stuff. I'm thinking of getting a cheap pair of some old ported speakers like I used to have, just to have them as a secondary for that kind of music.
     
  25. bhazen

    bhazen ANNOYING BEATLES FAN

    Location:
    Deepest suburbia
    I've fallen for this at at least a handful of times; ordering speakers (usually), from somewhere far away*, that have a cult following and really enthusiastic reviews, but are unavailable here. For whatever reason, I'm susceptible to this regarding hifi whereas I'm fairly clear-eyed about most other purchases (else I'd be broke.) In the case of the Harbeths, I think they are great little speakers ... just not for my particular situation.



    *Ironically, my current speakers - that I'm really enjoying - are the result of such a flyer. Soooooooooo ... have I learned anything? :)
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
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